Page 2 of 5

brine cured

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:12 pm
by Hampshire Jack
Hi everyone,
Could you tell me what herbs and spices are needed for the above cure.
Jack :D

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:57 pm
by saucisson
That's a straight and simple cure, you can add herbs and spices to get extra flavours as required, what were you after?


Dry pumped cures

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:49 pm
by Hampshire Jack
Hi Dave,
In Odley's ham cure it states that after you have oiled the water add your herbs and spices and that is the part I wanted information on, and also would it be the same herbs and spices for wiltshire cure. I would be most grateful if anyone has this imformation.
Jack. :D

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:54 pm
by saucisson
Ah, I see what you mean, I'll get back to you :)


PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:01 pm
by saucisson
For a Wiltshire cure when making up the brine, substitute the sugar for black treacle and half the water for beer, after boiling with the salt add 10 crushed juniper berries and 5g black pepper. Allow to cool and add the cure. Pump 10% of the weight of meat ie 100g brine (approx 100ml) per kilo of meat.

Keep the dry rub as stated (I think...)


Blast from the past!!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:51 pm
by Ianinfrance
Oddley wrote:This is a 10% pump and dry rub cure.

65.7895 %--300 g Sea Salt
32.8947 %--150 g Sugar
1.3158 %------6 g Saltpetre

Total Weight 456 g

Usage add 295 g to 1 litre of water

Boil the required amount of water add your herbs and spices then let cool. Add 295g of the above cure to every 1 litre of the water. Pump the meat at 10% eg: pump 100 g of the cure into every 1 Kg of meat.

I'm not trying to be silly here, but this is very confusing.

Firstly, we have a bizarre weight of cure. (456 g) then instead of using all of it, the recipe uses 295/456ths. It dissolves that in a reasonable (1 litre) amount of water. Well as an ex chemist I know that the final volume won't be 1 litre nor 1295 ml but somewhere in between.

Next. "add your herbs and spices" - no clues or suggestions as to what. If we're going to inject, surely any herbs or spices added are not going to dissolve, and will merely clog up the needles when you try to inject.

Now comes the really confusing part. Instead of injecting - say 100 mls (or 100gms) of liquid per kg or 150 mls per kg or whatever the quantity is going to be, we are told to inject at the rate of 10% cure. Now forgive me, but how on earth are we to relate 10% weight of cure to the volume of liquid to be used. Or does cure mean solution in this case. In which case since we'll probably be injecting with a graduated syringe, then why on earth not give a quantity in mls?

Could someone who actually understands Oddley's way of thinking turn this into a recipe an average Joe can follow. PLEASE. Pretty please. I have enormous respect for Oddley's knowledge, but find his recipe thought processes opaque to a degree.

I live in deepest France, can easily get high quality pork shoulder and leg, and suffer from a serious shortage of boiled bacon/gammon. I'd DEARLY love to be able to make my own as I do with streaky bacon. But until I understand the process I'm not going to sacrifice some poor unsuspecting porker.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:48 am
by captain wassname
Hi Ian I have just Used this this cure with no problem

If you use 295 gms of this mix to 1000 gms of Water (which should incude your herbs and spices sifted) then you should end up with 1295 gms of brine

so 1295 gms of cure contains 295 gms of cure

1 gm of cure contains 0.2277 gms cure so 1 kilo of meat at 10% pump needs 22.77 gms of cure

This is 65.7895% 14.98 gms salt

32.8497%sugar 7.49 gms sugar

1.3158% saltpetre 0,3 gms

so the brine is 77.23% water(including your boiled herbs and spices

14.98% salt

7.49 %sugar
0.3% salt petre

the rub cure works out to all intents and purposes the same. Though being new to the game I aint too shure why the cure should be adminstered 50/50 but it does work

I suppose I was lucky cos in my ignorance I merely weighed it all.

Hope this is of some help Id be more than pleased if you could confirm my math


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:49 am
by wheels

It's probably best that Oddley answers most of the issues raised in your post but...

This cure is to pump (inject), and then, rather than put the meat in brine, to subsequently dry cure it.

You use the same cure mix for both, hence the amount of cure you make is more than you put into the brine.

You make the brine as per Oddley's instructions.

You add spices of your choosing and then inject an amount equivalent to 10% of the weight of the meat - so you add the spices to get the flavour into the brine and then inject this. E.g. If the meat is 2.45kg you would inject 245gm of the brine (without the undissolved spices).

You then go on to dry cure it.

Hope this helps (and that my interpretation is correct!).


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:52 am
by wheels

My post 'crossed' with your's. :D

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:04 am
by captain wassname
Hi Ian I have presumed that you are aware of the rub part of the reciepe

Phil Do the maths stack up Please.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:10 am
by wheels

Oddley knows his stuff. Do it as he says and you will have exactly the levels of cure that he has stated (well within a tenth, or so, of a decimal place anyway!).

It's a superb bit of cure design!


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:19 pm
by clivmar
Hi Ian

I can understand your reluctance to waste a good porker. But I can safely say Oddley�s recipe for pump and dry rub ham cure is outstanding. I have a 2 to 3 Kg of ham on the go most of time.

The most important thing is to have a scale to weigh down to 0.1g. As saltpeter is not a thing to get wrong. I prefer to use Oddley�s cure that uses cure #1as follows:

Oddleys Ham Cure This is a 10% pump and dry rub cure. 60.7127 % - 276 g Salt 32.996 % - 150 g Sugar 0.6599 % - 3 g Saltpetre 5.6313 % - 25.6 g Cure #1 Total weight 454.6 Usage add 294 g to 1 litre of water Boil the required amount of water add your herbs and spices then let cool. Add 294 g of the above cure to every 1 litre of the water. Pump the meat at 10 % eg: pump 100 g of the cure into every 1 Kg of meat. Covering all the meat but particularly around the bones. Remember in a pork leg about 20 % is bone so take this off the meat total. For dry cure. Rub 23 g for every 1 Kg of meat. We finish the cure by rubbing in 23 g of the above dry cure for every 1 Kg of meat less bone. Put in a food grade bag and store at 6� C (Top shelf of fridge) for about 9 days. Cook by your normal method. There will be ingoing in the product about: 3 % salt 1.5 % Sugar 302 mg/Kg saltpetre 152 mg/Kg NitrIteMake up sufficient cure for the weight of ham you want to cure. PM if you need any help.Clive

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:01 pm
by saucisson
I also understand the cure so ask away... We all come from different walks of life and some terminology means different things to different people. I believe I have managed to weave it all together, simply because I have had the time to do it, and Oddley took the time to explain the bits I didn't understand to me.


Edit: give us a weight of meat you wish to process and we can walk you through it.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:07 pm
by captain wassname
Hi Ian please do not abandon this cure as I have found it to deliver excellent results. The cure that clive mentions is the same cure using cure no.1 and salt petre but I used the cure you were intrested i.e. all saltpetre and it worked well.

As Phil says this a well worked cure.Oddley did not select a bizarre weight of cure If used as instructed it will cure 10kg of meat within 1.7(I think )gms)

Oddley said use "at the rate of 295 gms per litre" He did not say make up 1295 gms of brine. So please trust us who have taken the time to try to understand the cure

Iwould add I understand how but not why.
Im shure we we would all be pleased to hear yout thoughts .It helps newcomers ,such as myself, to know why,or why not ,one would use a particular cure

PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:11 am
by Ianinfrance
Hi Folks.

First of all, I'm really sorry not to have come back before on this. We've been redecorating - boring how real life can get in the way of more important things.

I've read through - though not with a calculator in hand - your comments, and I most certainly have NO intention of giving up on the cure - I've not started with it, that's all, and I'm not going to start until I've got the whole process really clear in my mind.

Captain wassname... you said in your first post
so 1295 gms of cure contains 295 gms of cure.

1 gm of cure contains 0.2277 gms cure
Now this is just the sort of use of language I find confusing. Surely it's 1 gm of solution that contains .2277 gms cure.

You know, I think the light is beginning to dawn.... Oddley uses the word "cure" for both the powder and the dissolved solution interchangeably, and without differentiating. No doubt it's so obvious to anyone that's made it, that no one else notices this ambiguity.

Anyway, be that as it may, Let's see if I can follow the next bit.

So 1000 gms of solution will contain (1000/1295)*294 = 227 gms of cure. However, I will have made more than this EVEN if my leg had weighed 10kg. I suppose that the solution will keep for the next leg!

Now wheels says inject an amount equivalent to 10% of the weight of the meat "amount?" I'm sorry but amount is ambiguous. I guess that in view of everyone else's remarks, that means weight. So you weigh out whatever you need (245 gms in Wheel's example or 1000 gms in mine) of the brine. As I said, I thought most syringes were calibrated, so wouldn't it really be much easier to say "use 200 mls" - or whatever the volume of 245 gms turns out to be, or in making the recipe general, instead of saying inject at 10% he could either say "inject at 10%w/w of solution" (which is completely unambiguous) or else "inject at 8% (or whatever the figure works out at ) v/w of solution". Or is it that because in general digital scales are more accurate than syringes?

Anyway, to come to the next bit. You talk in terms of 50:50. Unless I've completely misunderstood, pumping at 10% would (in the hypothetical case of a 10kg leg whose weight is chosen purely for mathematical simplicity) need 1000 gms of either cure or solution, it's not clear which from Oddley's original recipe. I'm guessing that it's solution. That will give, as I said above, 227g of cure.

Aha.... and then he says
"rub at the rate of 23g/kg"
, which in my hypothetical 10kg leg is 230 gms or pretty well exactly the same, so THAT'S where the 50:50 comes from. All the rest is easy. Rub as usual and give it 14 days in a bag in the fridge.

Clive.. thanks very much for the offer, but I THINK that at last I've understood it. I think, however, that I might have a bash at rewriting this recipe in a way that I find unambiguous and clearer and bounce THAT off you. If you agree that I've got it right, then I'll go for it when I get back from the UK in early January.