A First try at gammon

[Ianinfrance]

Hi
Living in France, I can't easily get gammon/boiling bacon, and have been worrying away in my mind as to how to make it.

Some may remember my puzzlement at what to do when pumping and dry rubbing.Well I made up a batch of one of Oddley's cures, (varying the recipe slightly to be able to use a teaspoon measure for the saltpetre, to allow me to be accurate enough not to need special scales). However, I made a mistake over the type of sugar, and therefore decided on a compromise recipe. This morning, while in my local store, I saw a lovely looking pork shoulder at a reasonable price, so taking my courage (and wallet) in both hands, I bought it. When I got home, I had another quick read through of Oddley's method and of Jane Grigson in Charcuterie and this is what I did.

I boned out the shoulder. I then cut two largish rollable joints, I rolled and strung them closely and trimmed them to be more or less tidy. When finished I had one weighing 1520g and the other 1900g. The remaining pork I trimmed down to give me about a kilo of lean pork for stir frying and red roasting.

In the meantime I had infused 1 tsp each of crushed peppercorns and juniper, and 1/2 tsp of dried thyme in a litre of simmering water for about 20 minutes. Strained and then cooled to lukewarm. Made back up to a litre.

In that water I dissolved 295 g of Oddley's salt/sugar/saltpetre cure. I measured out 160 g of brine for the smaller joint and 190 g for the larger. While I was measuring, I measured out the two batches of dry rub at the rate of 2.3% or 23 g per kilo. This is where I made a compromise recipe. I remembered that my bacon dry cure uses 45g/kg to cure completely, and that Oddley's cure depends upon pumping half of the cure in as brine, while rubbing the other half at 23g. So instead of measuring out Oddley's cure for dry rubbing, I decided to use the bacon cure instead at the same proportion. So that's what I did, weighing out 35g and 44g of bacon cure.

I pumped the brine in (only squirting it out a couple of times) without much incident, it was easier than I expected. I then rubbed with bacon cure as usual, and popped both joints into vac bags and sealed them.

I'll be leaving them in for a fortnight, at the end of which I'll probably cut the larger one in half and cook it as my usual "braised" gammon and report back.

In the meantime, if anyone thinks I've been criminally stupid, I'd appreciate them telling me and explaining why! I've also labelled up the excess brine and intend to keep it for another curing attempt, unless someone convinces me that would be dangerous.

Oh... what should I do with the hock?

[wheels]

Ian

On the face of it, that sounds logical. It's hard to comment further without knowing the actual composition of the bacon cure - but 'hey ho' you seem to be in the right ball park!

If you had accurate scales you could just make enough of the wet brine cure for what you require, rather than make a 'batch'. I assume you did the 'saltpetre only' cure, in which case it should be OK to save the (unused) brine cure. If the wet brine cure contained cure #1, I wouldn't save it as cure #1 loses it's potency very quickly.

I look forward to seeing the results.

Phil

[Ianinfrance]

Hi Phil,

If you had accurate scales you could just make enough of the wet brine cure for what you require, rather than make a 'batch'.

Yes I could have. But in fact what I did was to make a goodish batch of Oddley's saltpetre only cure. I measured (three times) the weight of 10 level tsp of saltpetre, since this is the only truly critical ingredient. With the teaspoons I used, the weight of 1 tsp was 5.7g. So, I used 2 tsp (thus 11.4 g). On that basis I calculated that I'd need 530 g of salt and 265 g of sugar. I had meant to use half Demerara and half gran, but forgot in the heat of the moment.

Anyway, I then mixed all these, and then ground them pretty fine in my usual coffee grinder (for spices), before sieving three times to distribute the nitrate evenly. That's now ready for use whenever I want it.

So, to reply to the above, I could perfectly well have weighed out the right amount (342g) of water for the two joints (1520+1900=3420g)and then weighed out 295*342/1000 = 101g of cure. Without wanting to criticise anyone's desire to be precise, unless everyone who ever ate bacon and ham in the past ran enormous risks, anything between 100g and 110g of brine would have been fine, it seems to me.

If the wet brine cure contained cure #1, I wouldn't save it as cure #1 loses it's potency very quickly.

Thanks very much for that snippet. Would that be equally true for both powder and brine?

I suppose the unstable product is going to be the sodium nitrite, which I could well understand becoming oxidised to nitrate pretty quickly. That probably explains why Franco suggests using his bacon cures within the year.

By the way, I've investigate what I can buy. There's a "rubbing salt" (which does contain nitrite) designed for curing parma type raw hams. The only snag is that it's only sold in 25 kg packs! Grin, even with my love of ham, I can't see myself justifying its purchase. So in the end I merely bought a kilo of saltpetre which cost me peanuts.

[wheels]

Ian

What you did makes sense and you are correct about a certain amount of latitude - that's fine for guys like yourself who understand the process and what those latitudes are. What we are trying to avoid is the chuck it in and hope system of curing, hence my observations - probably more relevant to those who read the post afterwards, rather than yourself.

Yes, it's the Sodium Nitrite that's unstable when in a brine. I can't lay my hands on the technical (university) document that refers but they recommend a maximum of 24 hours before use for nitrite brine, but preferably to use it straight away. edit: I've just checked and the 24 hours is if ascorbate's added. However, the strength of the nitrite will still drop quickly in brine so it's still best not to keep nitrIte brine.

The powder is more stable as you have rightly observed.

If I remember correctly the French cures (rubbing salts) are 0.25% nitrite.

Phil

[wheels]

Found it, this document is not the one I was originally looking for but it seems to cover it:

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department ... penElement

Phil

[Glaven]

By the way, I've investigate what I can buy. There's a "rubbing salt" (which does contain nitrite) designed for curing parma type raw hams. The only snag is that it's only sold in 25 kg packs! Grin, even with my love of ham, I can't see myself justifying its purchase. So in the end I merely bought a kilo of saltpetre which cost me peanuts.

Hi Ian

I wonder if you would mind sharing your French source for "rubbing salt" and salp�tre? I've asked for the latter in several local pharmacies without much luck. They usually say, 'c'est tr�s dangereux' and show me the door (maybe they think I look like a terrorist!).

PS: Have you managed to source any Prague Powder #1 in France? I had to order mine from the US.

[saucisson]

Would it not have been easier to order cure #1 from sausagemaking.org here in the UK, rather than from the States?

Dave

[Glaven]

It was a wee bit cheaper .

[saucisson]

Fair enough

Dave

[Ianinfrance]

Hi Glaven

By the way, I've investigate what I can buy.

Hi Ian
I wonder if you would mind sharing your French source for "rubbing salt" and salp�tre?

Sure. It's a company called La Bovida. The branch I use is in Brive-la-Gaillard about 40 km west of us. The have the sort of website that one can only find in France. Totally unusable. However the people in Brive are lovely and very helpful. I bought a kilo of KNO3 and so far, have used 2 tsp = 11.4g so if you wanted me to put a hundred g in the post to you, all you need to do is to send me a pm.

PS: Have you managed to source any Prague Powder #1 in France? I had to order mine from the US.

Nope, but to be honest I've not tried. That said, La Bovida do have a whole STRING of curing products mostly sold in 1 or 2 kg drums. I think that you would need to go in there, armed with the formulae of the commonest cures and see if there's anything suitable.

The crunch question of course is whether there's a branch anywhere near to you not knowing exactly where you are. They've got branches in Bourges and Lyon. Let me know which is better for you and I'll give you their co-ordonn�es.

Hope that helps a bit.

To Phil

You said

What you did makes sense and you are correct about a certain amount of latitude - that's fine for guys like yourself who understand the process and what those latitudes are.

Well I only understand, because I ask and ask until I do!! And of course a good grounding in chemistry helps. When you think about it, people have been curing with greater or lesser success for centuries and even millennia. I think there's a slight danger that we over-complicate things. Sure we need to know what is positively dangerous, and why. Which is why I was so grateful for what you pointed out about the instability of nitrite solutions, especially in the presence of ascorbate and erythobate (sp).

But at the end of the day, the relationship between sugar and salt in a cure is going to vary widely from one culture to another, so THAT'S not critical. It's not rocket science to be aware that a cure that contains the same weight of sugar and salt will have to be used in larger quantities than one containing nothing but salt. I think one would need to be blind not to be aware that the critical components are nitrate and nitrite.

Leaving the nitrite to one side (lack of easy availability and accurate scales, discourage me) I'm looking at nitrate. And there we see old fashioned cures for rubs which use 450 g of salt, 200 g sugar and 50 g of saltpetre to start off a York ham, before brining in a brine with 350 g each of salt and brown sugar and 50 g saltpetre in 3 litres of water. These are HUGE proportions of saltpetre when compared with Odlley's cure, for example. So it's clear that there's got to be a wide latitude there too, much wider than the prevailing wisdom of this forum would suggest.

Which is why I've become much more relaxed about it all. As long as there's enough nitrate to convert to nitrite to kill botulism, and as long as there's not so much that I give myself cancer (nitrosamines) I think I can play to my heart's content!

I MUST point out that I'm talking about relatively simple brine/salt rub cures, not about making cured dried fermented sausages, which is a different ballpark altogether and one which I've not entered at all as yet.

[wheels]

... I think one would need to be blind not to be aware that the critical components are nitrate and nitrite. .

You would think so wouldn't you - but look at how many people are choosing to leave it out completely, and then they wonder why it goes wrong.

Leaving the nitrite to one side (lack of easy availability and accurate scales, discourage me) I'm looking at nitrate. And there we see old fashioned cures for rubs which use 450 g of salt, 200 g sugar and 50 g of saltpetre to start off a York ham, before brining in a brine with 350 g each of salt and brown sugar and 50 g saltpetre in 3 litres of water. These are HUGE proportions of saltpetre when compared with Odlley's cure, for example. So it's clear that there's got to be a wide latitude there too, much wider than the prevailing wisdom of this forum would suggest.

I've not checked your figures - there seems little point, other than for an academic discussion. The reason we don't cure with these levels any more is because the government scientists advise us that it is dangerous. Please look at either the US, EU or Canadian laws on maximum levels in commercial curing, they're all available online, as are the Danish governments proposals for no curing process to exceed 150PPM Nitrate or Nitrite.

Which is why I've become much more relaxed about it all. As long as there's enough nitrate to convert to nitrite to kill botulism, and as long as there's not so much that I give myself cancer (nitrosamines) I think I can play to my heart's content!

Exactly.

I MUST point out that I'm talking about relatively simple brine/salt rub cures, not about making cured dried fermented sausages, which is a different ballpark altogether and one which I've not entered at all as yet

A very good point.

Ian. I think we must agree to disagree on this You will do your thing, I will do mine, which to make clear to others reading this later, is to cure to the levels prescribed as safe by the EU scientific advisers.

Phil

[Glaven]

The crunch question of course is whether there's a branch anywhere near to you not knowing exactly where you are. They've got branches in Bourges and Lyon. Let me know which is better for you and I'll give you their co-ordonn�es.

Thanks Ian

I've sent you a PM.

[Ianinfrance]

Hi Phil,

Which is why I've become much more relaxed about it all. As long as there's enough nitrate to convert to nitrite to kill botulism, and as long as there's not so much that I give myself cancer (nitrosamines) I think I can play to my heart's content!

Exactly.

[snip]
Ian. I think we must agree to disagree on this You will do your thing, I will do mine, which to make clear to others reading this later, is to cure to the levels prescribed as safe by the EU scientific advisers.

Well, I have to admit I've not read through these publications. I am totally allergic to governmentese. I'm afraid.

However correct me if I'm wrong, but iirc the risk with nitrosamines has to do with heating meat containing nitrites to a relatively high temperature, doesn't it? I'm almost sure I've read something to that effect here.

So in the case of bacon, the risk is present if there are high levels of nitrites and if you've not used ascorbates or eryrthorbates to deal with it.

However, in the case of boiling bacon, or ham to be eaten raw, or cooked ham which is poached at around 65C, unless I've completely misunderstood things, I don't see any risk.

I'm not disagreeing with your position on advising people to keep to food safety guidelines, not at all. I'm happy enough to agree to disagree, though my nature is very much to try to get to the bottom of a mystery.

I would however say that it has been my experience generally in food safety matters, when it applies to less esoteric and obscure matters, and ones which I've studied and known something about, is that the advice given by food safety authorities has been more motivated by a desire to cover their backs than to tell the whole truth.

I'll give one example. No case of salmonella has ever been found in a single Lion brand egg. (These are eggs from innoculated hens). Yet advice given to people is to avoid giving raw eggs to groups of people who would be at grave risk if they contracted Salmoella.

Surely the RIGHT advice would be to say, "only EVER use Lion brand eggs when using them raw". And actually that should really apply to everyone in my view. I'll go further, I'd ban all sales of eggs from flocks that weren't innoculated.

Anyway, forgive the digression. I'd never advise anyone not to follow guide lines, though I do feel it helps us all make up our own minds if we can dig up and expose the truth.

[saucisson]

You are correct that heating meat to over 450 deg C ( it may be less ) ie frying over-zealously; is the major concern as far as nitrosamines are concerned. Our forebears didn't know about them so didn't worry too much about them.

However as nitrates and nitrites are toxic in their own right it seems prudent to reduce them to levels that we now know (with the benefit of scientific hindsight) do the job perfectly well as far as botulism is concerned, thereby saving money by not wasting unnecessary cure if nothing else. Again, our forebears just shovelled the stuff on because they didn't know any better. They mostly died at an early age too...

Dave

[Ianinfrance]

Hi,
As a long delayed follow up to this, I've now twice tried out the method I outlined above. (Injecting Oddley's Brine to give 50% of the salt required and dry rubbing with the Smoked Bacon rub from this site.

The first comment I'd make is that unlike the case of dry rubbing pork belly for bacon, using the dry rub to give 100% of the curing, it's misleading to call it "dry" rub. The injection of brine to the level of 10% of the weight of meat, is hard to achieve, with brine tending to squirt out here and there! Even if you re-inect it, as I did, the surface was pretty soggy, and the rub really made something of a paste. This amount of surface liquid meant that there was a tendency for the paste to be sucked out of the bag during the vacuum sealing process. It wasn't impossible to prevent it, but quite tricky.

Anyway, we left the vac packed meat rather longer than the 14 days mentioned, but as this is an equilibrium cure, I judged that this was entirely without implication for either success or flavour.

When we took the meat out, we washed and dried it as usual. Never having cooked such a beast before, we decided on giving it a light initial soaking, followed by pouring off the soaking water and heating in fresh. After 5 minutes I tasted this - standard method to desalt meat if it's saltier than normal. The cooking liquid was almost entirely unsalty, so without further ado we added the usual cooking vegetables and poached the meat for the usual 40 mins a pound, more or less, before removing, skinning, glazing and baking in a hot oven.

The resulting boiled bacon/gammon was WAY better than anything I've ever bought from any supermarket, and perfectly salted.

Fortunately we've got a 1500g joint ready to be cooked for next week, and a big chunk of 4 kilos or so ready to be cut down into manageable joints and frozen.

This experiment was a huge success and I want to thank Oddley for his original recipe, and Phil and Dave for their help and explanations.

I shall certainly be doing this again. Even the very random industrial pig I experimented with the first time was delicious, while the farm porker we did later was a revelation.