Corned Beef "Leftovers" -- still in brine from St.

Recipes and techniques using brine.

Postby grisell » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:10 am

Smell has nothing to do with it. The nastiest poisonings don't smell or taste at all. Anyway, if you kept it refrigerated all the time and used pink salt, botulism would be out of the question. I was thinking about psychrophilic bacteria like Pseudomonas. Maybe I'm just paranoid. I got a Campylobacter infection from raw chicken 20 years ago so I know what food poisoning can do to you. There shouldn't be any danger, but with my experience I would throw it away and make a new one. There is no reason in the industrialized world to eat doubtful food and risk anything in my opinion. The recipe seems great by the way.
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Postby wheels » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:41 pm

To be honest, for the sake of 2lb of brisket, as I said above, I don't think I'd personally bother.

However, in theory and if we believe the scientists, it should be OK. However, in theory, it will have quite a high salt content.

But, as someone said: "I'm going to move to theory; everything works there!"

Phil
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Postby Ianinfrance » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:44 pm

Hi cupofnestor

Botulism toxin is destroyed by being kept at 100C for twenty minutes or so. However it's not clear to me that the salt beef would be improved by this.

If you have a probe thermometer and can ensure that the centre of the corned beef has been 20 minutes at boiling point, then you need not worry about botox.

Hi Grisell,
I wasn't aware that proliferating c. botulinum gave off gas. I'm not saying it doesn't, I hasten to add, just that I thought that was what made it so potentially dengerous. I understood that the taste and appearance of the infected food was unchanged. I'd be delighted to be show I was wrong.
All the best - Ian
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Postby grisell » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:13 am

Ianinfrance wrote:[---]
Hi Grisell,
I wasn't aware that proliferating c. botulinum gave off gas. I'm not saying it doesn't, I hasten to add, just that I thought that was what made it so potentially dengerous. I understood that the taste and appearance of the infected food was unchanged. I'd be delighted to be show I was wrong.


I have several sources that say that it in fact does. For example, quote from The Wordsworth Guide to Poisons and Antidotes:

"Even though botulism spores are invisible, it's possible to tell if food is spoiled by noticing if jars have lost their vacuum seal; when the spores grow, they give off gas that makes cans and jars lose the seal. Jars will burst or cans will swell. Any food that is spoiled or whose color or odor doesn't seem right inside a home-canned jar or can should be thrown away without tasting or even sniffing, since botulism can be fatal in extremely small amounts."

However, this requires that there was a 100 percent seal from the start. Any leak, and this would go unnoticed. In any case, I wouldn't rely solely on the absence of swelling as an indicator that the food is okay to eat.

PS Just recently, I read a book on polar exploration, the excellent "To the Ends of the World" by Richard Sale. There is a chapter about Franklin's lost expedition in the middle of the 19th century. They brought with them a lot of canned food that was made under inferior hygienic conditions (food canning was in its infancy). All the men perished and were never heard of again. One theory of their demise was botulism because of the canned food, however after recent exhumation of some graves and autopsies, it now seems more likely that their deaths were due to lead poisoning. The botulism theory is not mentioned in the Wikipedia article, which nevertheless provides some interesting reading:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin%2 ... expedition
André

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Postby saucisson » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:14 am

Interesting. This is completely conjecture on my part but I wonder if it's a case of:

If gas is present then bacteria are present and the food is probably spoiled, and you can't exclude the fact that one of the bacterial species present might be clostridium. Rather than clostridium necessarily being the cause of the gas? If I saw swelling I'd immediately think some lactic fermentation had been going on.

I've no idea though, but I have always believed that clostridium was the "silent killer" at least in part, because you had no idea it was there.

However a google search on "canned food swelling botulism" brings up dozens of hits though, and a recommendation to discard any swollen cans or packages to avoid botulism is frequently recommended.

I like Andre's point that if there is no swelling it doesn't mean no gas is being produced, you may have a leak.
Curing is not an exact science... So it's not a sin to bin.

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Postby BriCan » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:31 am

saucisson wrote:I like Andre's point that if there is no swelling it doesn't mean no gas is being produced, you may have a leak.


:) The only thing wrong with that is if there is no swelling (puffing up like a pillow) then everything is fine (remember we are talking about eight weeks). On the other point 'having a leak' one would know that there is a problem as the escaping liquid would/will make a mess and create a strong smell/odder

I have a strip loin in my cooler that has been there for well over six month and there's nowt wrong wiv it except you will only need a folk to cut it with :lol: :lol:
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Postby grisell » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:38 am

You're right, BriCan. Of course, that refered to cans and jars.
André

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Postby Ianinfrance » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:49 am

Fascinating, people. Thanks very much. I did once have a batch of mushrooms that I "canned" in jars, and which lost their seal. I have to say that they didn't half pong when opened, so I wasn't even faintly tempted to try them.
All the best - Ian
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Postby wheels » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:31 pm

I was thinking further about this meat last night and whilst what I said is still true: it should be OK in theory, I would be far happier to see some nitrate in the cure mix.

I still wouldn't use it personally. How much does 2lb of brisket cost? Is it a lot?

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Postby grisell » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:49 pm

Wheels: That was my point too.
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