Yogurt as culture? how long.

Air dried cured Meat Techniques

Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby casualties_army40 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:16 am

Just a question on anyone who uses or have used yogurt and a starter culture. How long and at what temperatures do you ferment your sausages at when doing a fermented and air dried sausage?

I'll be making a big batch of chorizo and some sort of salami later on in the week and i'm keen to try using a live yogurt as a starter because my partner makes fresh yogurt all the time so i have it available constantly.

Also, does anyone know if wine added to the sausage would impact the fermentation process in any way?

Thanks.
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Re: Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby Mohalk » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:35 pm

If trying this I would not do it on a "big" batch of meat. The cultures in yogurt are for dairy and not meat from my understanding. please follow this link http://lpoli.50webs.com/page0001.htm and near the bottom of that page is a section in "starter cultures"
Old school! Why? I'm old.
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Re: Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby casualties_army40 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:43 am

I should have been more specific, I'm going to do a big batch of sausage and i want to try using yogurt as a starter culture for a part of my batch.

I just wanted to know if anyone knew ideal temperatures and time estimate for fermentation. I always us TSPX and i use it at 22 degrees celsius for 48 hours with good results but for yogurt i would hate to ferment it for too long and ruin the batch.

If i can't get the right info, i just wont use it, but like i said, I'd love try try it.

Cheers.
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Re: Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby Weoochaun » Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:41 am

I saw this post and joined the forum so I could give some input - hope its not too late.

I've been using yogurt as a culture for about 6 months - with mixed results. I do think it's a good idea. Purchased cultures are great but much of the reason many of us are making sausage is to get away from the blandness and sameness of commercial supermarket produce. It seems to me that by using yogurt we can maintain individualism and a certain integrity of taste that is regional.

To be honest I started using yogurt because of the lack of commercial cultures available where I am, which is Burma. My handle, 'We Oo Chaun' is the Burmese word for sausage, it literally translates as 'Pig Intestine Stick'.

As to your question; in my limited experience the fermentation time depends on the strength and amount of yogurt that you introduce. As you're making your own it shouldn't be too difficult to work out what time of day to start and how much too add. Just a bit of trial and error. Even better if you have a pH meter.

I usually make about 10Kgs of pepperoni at an ambient temperaature of 30 C and ferment for 3 days. About 1/2 cup of firm yogurt does it for me. Be careful about adding too much and dropping the pH too quickly - I think it prevents the sausage getting a good bind.
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Re: Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby wheels » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:43 pm

Hi Weoochaun, welcome. :D :D

I've always had some concerns about the use of yogurt, but a guy who made some really good salami and was a member of the forum, used it as a matter of course. There must be differing results according to the age of the product?

That said, he didn't test for pH.

I think that your advice: "Be careful about adding too much and dropping the pH too quickly - I think it prevents the sausage getting a good bind."

Is very good.

Please tell us more about salami, sausage and curing in Burma.

Phil
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Re: Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby crustyo44 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:28 pm

Hi,
Where in Australia did you buy your culture. I live in Brisbane and like to buy some a bit closer to where I reside. I prefer to buy local if possible and not 1250 miles away.
Cheers,
Jan.
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Re: Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby Weoochaun » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:25 am

Hi Wheels and thanks for the thumbs up.

There is not too much of a cured meat culture here. I think that the year round abundance of food may explain that, However there is a large Chinese population that make the thin red sweet sausages that are common in your local Chinese take-away! They tell me they don't use nitrite or dyes. I'm dubious about both points. They are ready to eat about 6 hours after hanging in the sun but better the next day.

One curiosity is that here the pig intestine is sold dry, not packed in salt.

I use nitrite that I buy from a chemist and weigh in on a gemstone scale (1/500 g - accuracy). I have only made fast pepperoni, ham (brined) and am now trying out a breakfast beef sausage with sage.

I'm pleased that you think I may be correct about fast pH drop and bind. I am really flying by the seat of my pants here but I try to minimize how much yogurt I add nowadays. Without a mentor that can inspect what I'm doing forums like this are a godsend!
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Re: Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby Wunderdave » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:52 pm

If you're concerned about yogurt's acid affecting your PH can't you simply bloom some yogurt in sugared distilled water?
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Re: Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby gyeniceri » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:17 pm

From my cheesemaking knowledge:
Yogurt is a thermophilic culture which means they work best between 40 to 43C temperatures.

Where as buttermilk is mesophilic and works best between 23 to 30C temperatures. Concentration of bacteria in a shop bought buttermilk may not be enough and need to be kept open on the kitchen bench at room temperature for a day, so that bacteria population would be enough for your sausage making purposes.

As others said though, these are dairy cultures and consume lactose in the milk to produce lactic acid. If you add milk powder as a binder or malt sugar (which is similar to lactose sugar as in disaccharide) into your mix, it may work but checking the pH closely is a necessity.

Another option would be to use kefir as a culture, it has a diverse range bacteria, yeast and mould. The problem is the acidity and again, need to be checked regularly as we don't know exactly how much culture we are putting into our sausage mix.
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Re: Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby Weoochaun » Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:19 am

I actually use dried milk powder and dextrose in my pepperoni and have considered cutting out the dextrose because as you said " these are dairy cultures and consume lactose in the milk to produce lactic acid". All the literature says add dextrose so the bacteria have easy food and as it doesn't seem to adversly affect my product I have left it unchanged. I am basically using Stan Marianky's (sp) recipe for fast pepperoni with the starter culture changed to yogurt.

I have also added about 8% water to my last batch with the hope that the salt and the nitrite will have more chance to bring out a better red colour.
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Re: Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby crustyo44 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:13 am

I might be a bit late with my follow up post but there is rather a lot of info and pictures available at the moment about Yoghurt usage as a culture on the USA Wedliny Domowe site.
The gentleman doing the tests is an experienced sausage maker and very knowledgeable.
I have no doubt that you will get all the info and help you need to succeed.
Cheers,
Jan.
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Re: Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby wheels » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:20 pm

Is it this one:

http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=6588

It's most interesting and warrants reading in its entirety.

A couple of things strike me after a quick read. Firstly, that Igor (who appears to have been a Chr Hansen employee) says that L. acidophilus won't survive fermentation, and secondly, that the cultures in pro-biotic yogurt are very temperature sensitive.

I'm not sure I'd have much confidence in their use without pH testing.

Phil
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Re: Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby crustyo44 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:48 am

Forum: Microbiology of meat and products Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 06:35 Subject: Yoghurt as culture
Hi Phil,
These are the posts by Redzed about yoghurt as a culture, complete with photo's and all other relevant information.
Cheers,
Jan.
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Re: Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby crustyo44 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:50 am

Back again Phil.
The link should have posted differently.
Just check Redzed's posts on Wedliny Domowe.
Cheers,
Jan.
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Re: Yogurt as culture? how long.

Postby wheels » Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:01 pm

Ye, it's this one:

http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=6588

It makes for interesting reading.

Phil
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