Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby wheels » Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:59 pm

Sorry, but cardboard and gaffer tape for a unit that cost so much? Like Gus inferred above, I'd be telling the supplier that I'll see them in the small claims court - and following through with it if they don't sort the problems out.

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Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby GUS » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:13 pm

First & foremost, your fuel, it's never worked, source of ignition, regardless of cost this is getting silly, swap over brands, (if the stuff you have proves naff then MAYBE it can be diluted to run with something that does take) ..if I've read correctly (skim read again) you are using something from elsewhere not the recommended brand!? ..this makes understanding the nuances of your own machine even harder! ..start with the "good stuff" (gotta be cheaper than time & energy per burn so far) , upright exit flue, straighten the entry flue, block wind off & try to run it as it should be straight out of the box, proper chips / dust will knock another aspect of this out of the equation.

On my own CSG i've used approaching 10kg of dust since summer, & there is a long tale in the origins of the csg thread when the "recipe" for dust changed, ..which has been sorted & put to bed, however it is a key element in any smoker, quality fuel, right grade, ...& certified clean of any nasties.

Worth coughing up for a bag!
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Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby GUS » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:18 pm

I agree Wheels, however the theory behind smokers & chimneys aint rocket science, you'd also have to prove the installation & materials used were correct & appropriate, which the flues aren't think we are looking at the obvious in terms of basic mechanics, & everything has been tinkered with bar the "fuel" ..we need to press the reset, & work it from the bottom up.

My WBS was a learning curve for seasons of burns, & still is based on atmospherics & fuel changes, (species & moisture partnered with weather)
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Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby GUS » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:26 pm

reading again, you state the heat needs to be on to cause an updraught!? ..which tightens the screws in my mind with regard to combustion, choke points in your flue set up offbalancing everything, the heat you are providing is helping updraught circulation (drawing) but not solving.

Palletise the lot & place it in a less open environment perhaps, & run a straight length of flue to increase draw from the chamber to the exit, which will help force smouldering dust too.. open barn appearance is at a guess also adding to the negative air pressure you are creating with your flue set up the way it is, we need positive flow.

As per previous question, did a professional install this & sign it off having completed a test run? or is this a self install.
What are the dims of the recommended dust to burn with this unit exactly, got a link? ..& how far off the mark is the stuff you are using?
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Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby GUS » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:49 pm

http://www.beelonia.de/e-kataloge/BeeloniaEN/index.html#/12So others can see the model in all its glory, (it is a beauty) ,ratyher than a mish mash of shots.

In essence it's a simple yet pedigree beast, give it some good quality fodder.
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Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby NCPaul » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:37 pm

I agree with GUS. This is a beautiful smoker (and should be for the price) :D ; a short straight flue and some good dust and it should run right. Please try this at least once.
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Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby Headbutchersouthwest » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:47 pm

GUS wrote:http://www.beelonia.de/e-kataloge/BeeloniaEN/index.html#/12So others can see the model in all its glory, (it is a beauty) ,ratyher than a mish mash of shots.

In essence it's a simple yet pedigree beast, give it some good quality fodder.


Gus we brought 2 types of dust , 1 lot was oak dust & other was beech dust both from reputable smoker dealers! Tho I have been told to use dust from ashwoods as they produce the best dust that works really well.
I have microwaved our dust a few times just in case it was a damp problem but it didn't change anything..?
The smoker does work fine if we leave the 800w element of a timer of 10-15 minute stints but it burns the dust really quick so only lasts around 3 hours before needing a top up .

The smoker flues were fitted by someone that fits stoves tho he did say he didn't know too much about smokers..! So I'd imagine that's a mistake on our front :oops:
It didn't give any indication in the manual how to fit the flues and distances / angles etc hence we contacted them and had no reply :roll:

Pitty no one here lives near Dorset as I would invite someone down to take a look and sort it out , obivously I would pay for the time etc unless beelonia decided to sort them selfs out
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Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby GUS » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:20 pm

Well, that is genuinely reassuring Ashwood are well known, I use them myself based on reputation& proximity.
From where I stand then it still lies with the flues as the main culprits, what's access like to securing to a decent pallet? which would also keep it from damp standing corrosion issues, yank it out from its exposed position & pop it under proper cover for a test run that only involves allowing some of your excess flue to go up dead straight even if that means a Smokey stable or similar, just to reflect on possible changes in performance?

Also, did your fitter comment on location with regard to surrounding building height causing any turbulence factors?

With regard to microwaving my dust, it's kept in an unheated room & I typically give it 3 mins in a 900w microwave on a pottery plate, fair amount of steam visible to the naked eye, what is a load weight for a full burn? & burn time please?

dumb as it may sound, is it possible to have a 360 degree shot of surrounding environment to get rid of niggly feeling of high buildings affecting a straight flue, ..termination of a chimney (stove) needs to be "x" height beyond the roof ridge, whilst it may not matter here, I'm not going to chance it by saying it doesn't, especially when we Don't know for certain.
Jerry rig a pole & lift that flue up straight & secure, then I think we'll be getting places (he said jinxing it).
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Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby GUS » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:36 pm

I'm going to try & choke my dust' s burn by replicating your horizontal flue outlet, & see if I can snuff or disrupt my burn, (weather dependent) & pop a time lapse enabled phone into the chamber to see the difference (if any), to get my head round this.

Your unit doesn't seem complicated, it's a widely known brand, good amount of units shifted, same format in design for all smokers ultimately, I'd be more wary of a complex pid controller, this seems nice & simple(remote viewing perspective).

Can you badger the company to find out who has either the same model / similar within a reasonable distance visit, get a demo, chat & see what clicks into place? ,Even pester another company for that info, think it's going to help you in the long run.
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Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby GUS » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:38 pm

Hope I'm not wearing you down! :wink:
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Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby Headbutchersouthwest » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:09 am

GUS wrote:Well, that is genuinely reassuring Ashwood are well known, I use them myself based on reputation& proximity.
From where I stand then it still lies with the flues as the main culprits, what's access like to securing to a decent pallet? which would also keep it from damp standing corrosion issues, yank it out from its exposed position & pop it under proper cover for a test run that only involves allowing some of your excess flue to go up dead straight even if that means a Smokey stable or similar, just to reflect on possible changes in performance?

Also, did your fitter comment on location with regard to surrounding building height causing any turbulence factors?

With regard to microwaving my dust, it's kept in an unheated room & I typically give it 3 mins in a 900w microwave on a pottery plate, fair amount of steam visible to the naked eye, what is a load weight for a full burn? & burn time please?

dumb as it may sound, is it possible to have a 360 degree shot of surrounding environment to get rid of niggly feeling of high buildings affecting a straight flue, ..termination of a chimney (stove) needs to be "x" height beyond the roof ridge, whilst it may not matter here, I'm not going to chance it by saying it doesn't, especially when we Don't know for certain.
Jerry rig a pole & lift that flue up straight & secure, then I think we'll be getting places (he said jinxing it).



Gus the chances of moving the actual smoker from out of the prep room are minimal due to access problems..! What I will do a Monday morning is remove the exhaust flue from its current sloping sidewards position and where the exhaust flue comes out of the prep room I will direct the flue straight up thru the roof , so there will only be a short bend in the flue coming out of the smoker then a slight angle before flue heads north hopefully this will do something , if not I will cut thru the roof of the prep room and direct the flue straight up as suggested but I don't want to cut new holes in the ceiling unless I really have to!

Would it make a difference if the smoke box is elevated above the smoke entrance pipe or should I put it back below the smoke entrance but cut the pipe shorter?

I will order new dust on Monday from ashwoods , I've also been told to give pellets a go but where can I buy large amounts of pallets ? I only see small packets on the net

See photos below of previous position of the smoke box and its current position

Previous position
Image

Smoke box position currently

Image

There's no high building surrounding the prep room , but where the outside smoke box is situated there is a 6ft wall to the right hand & on the left is the wall to our prep room along with another prep room wall at the back of the smoke box all these walls have a roof covering the smoke box so air is only coming in direct from the front end of the smoke box
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Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby GUS » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:53 pm

Headbutchersouthwest wrote:


What I will do a Monday morning is remove the exhaust flue from its current sloping sidewards position and where the exhaust flue comes out of the prep room

I will direct the flue straight up thru the roof , so there will only be a short bend in the flue coming out of the smoker then a slight angle before flue heads north hopefully this will do something ,

if not I will cut thru the roof of the prep room and direct the flue straight up as suggested but I don't want to cut new holes in the ceiling unless I really have to!

Would it make a difference if the smoke box is elevated above the smoke entrance pipe or should I put it back below the smoke entrance but cut the pipe shorter?

I will order new dust on Monday from ashwoods , I've also been told to give pellets a go but where can I buy large amounts of pallets ? I only see small packets on the net


There's no high building surrounding the prep room , but where the outside smoke box is situated there is a 6ft wall to the right hand & on the left is the wall to our prep room along with another prep room wall at the back of the smoke box all these walls have a roof covering the smoke box so air is only coming in direct from the front end of the smoke box[/quote]


OK, I understand.
DON'T buy in any more sacks / bags of either pellets nor smoking dust currently, for test purposes "KISS" is our mantra. besides, if we need finer we can experiment with making a burn load finer rather than buy in guesstimates of what's needed, this can eventually be discussed with any supplier, IF using the same Beech as I am, then that is pretty damn fine as is.

DO put everything as per the catalogue I popped a pdf link to to get it as "standard" as possible.

DO make the exit flue as straight UPRIGHT & as kink free as possible with minimum bend, no laying horizontal, to be frank i'd kick the backside of your stove installer for leaving it in that manner unless he had already stated the shortcomings of trailing flat layed out flexi flue under normal circumstances.


DO put the smoke generator lower again (but out of any turbulance) as per the above standard operation.

DO make any smoke channel as simple as possible with the least amount of kink, SO if this means trying on of your short pieces of cut off flexi flue to make the simplest, gentlest transition from smoke generator to food chamber then do it, (watch those edges, use workgloves "razor sharp", temporarily stuff any leaky hole with a clean cloth t-shirt, clean tea towel bung or similar to block & redirect the sample flow, so if need be it can be pulled off & played around with.

After it's jerry-rigged we test run with warmed through,plates of smoking dust, do it yourself in the microwave & steam it out, a few cups at a time, 3 minutes on high power, then a further 2 (watch it) if doing what i've just weighed as a batch of 212g I pre-prep this as my standard amount by eye, based on cup fills, (just for info).
Please keep your complete sacks of dust out of the work area, mine are covered over & slightly insulated against an inner wall off the floor to keep it drier against the low thermal values of walls & concrete flooring =slow damp ingress, based on temp & bag perforations, to minimise sweating.

Which size of chips / dust from your bags?..we may as well know.

Have your initial runs been singular type of dust species or a mix?

What is your overall load quantity weight for a full run, (all times are speculative, not rigid, but lets make a few notes as to weight, weather & run times.

(note: on my csg unit the oak is slightly larger chip & burns better with a finer mix of alt species on my set up, cannot speak for others) ..but obviously a mix is easier to take think short & long fibre threads drawing upon each other, a bit like not banging a full log on a fire, but starting with fine kindling & air supply, prior to building up a big blaze).

The other thing we'll try, which may be scoffed at is to warm the flue, as a stove always works best when there is good current compared to cold operation, so turn the heat up gently in the initial TEST, till there is clearly a thermal draught in operation then work backwards based on new results (good or bad) ..because we are working speculatively here.

................................
Personally, & merely based on my own eco-attitude I would eventually lightly lag final working positioned flue inside the shed, when you have the element on some heat is obviously lost to the frame via absorption, better insulation of the cabinet body or flue makes for more precise control of temperatures & less energy used overall, basically providing less frequent cycling of the thermostat & heating element, but this is for down the road, (it's all production cost).

IS there a seal between the drawer front & the body of the smoke generator?
what air in is supplied to the smoke generator drawer compartment? ..any vents adjustable or otherwise?

How have you had the smoke generator drawer compartment whilst in operation previously?, cracked open completely shut etc?
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Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby GUS » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:32 pm

Not nitpicking:
On one of your other threads you stated that you'd already bought smokedust from an alternate source having been recommended Ashwood, can you confirm you are now only using the Ashwood type, & that the other stuff is for the time being out of the picture? as you've already made clear you have Ashwood stock as well.
(just to clear things up) ..separate the bags so there is no confusion as to source, size & supplier. :D when doing any test runs.

Any assistance from the distributor as needed will need to be standardised operation in order not to hit any walls (sic).

I note on a beelonia animation there is a chimney exit flue damper translated as "Abgasregelung" / emission control ? what has this been set on so far? as this is a burn regulator to slow burns by restrictive flow (usually with a hole in the middle to allow a minimal flow regardless) upon initial start up this I guess should be fully open till in full effect then throttled back accordingly, it's the same as trying to keep a stove burning overnight in a slumber mode, which decreases the efficiency of the fuel in a domestic set up in exchange for gentle burn warmth but with more particulate coating the chimney & chamber, this technically will assist your fuel burn time on a long burn, ..getting the balance is what we are of course after dependant upon your needs.
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Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby Headbutchersouthwest » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:21 pm

GUS wrote:Not nitpicking:
On one of your other threads you stated that you'd already bought smokedust from an alternate source having been recommended Ashwood, can you confirm you are now only using the Ashwood type, & that the other stuff is for the time being out of the picture? as you've already made clear you have Ashwood stock as well.
(just to clear things up) ..separate the bags so there is no confusion as to source, size & supplier. :D when doing any test runs.

Any assistance from the distributor as needed will need to be standardised operation in order not to hit any walls (sic).

I note on a beelonia animation there is a chimney exit flue damper translated as "Abgasregelung" / emission control ? what has this been set on so far? as this is a burn regulator to slow burns by restrictive flow (usually with a hole in the middle to allow a minimal flow regardless) upon initial start up this I guess should be fully open till in full effect then throttled back accordingly, it's the same as trying to keep a stove burning overnight in a slumber mode, which decreases the efficiency of the fuel in a domestic set up in exchange for gentle burn warmth but with more particulate coating the chimney & chamber, this technically will assist your fuel burn time on a long burn, ..getting the balance is what we are of course after dependant upon your needs.



today we moved the outside smoke box back to its original position tho we moved it move over the left so the the pipe will be straighter as it enters the feed pipe into the smoker!
photo below to show its position now along with all the surrounding features that may cause turbulence…!
I'm awaiting some slightly bigger flex so i can link both pipes together again with out any major bends etc
Image

here is another photo showing the existing exhaust flue in which will be moved into a vertical position to aid our problems
Image

can use see any further problems from these 2 new photos?
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Re: Using a fan to aid sawdust smouldering

Postby GUS » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:56 pm

Any test runs completed yet?
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