Pie and Mash on-line

[Rik vonTrense]

Touche............

Pokerpete wrote...

Why don't you tell RVT his post his a sweeping statement? When basically his applies in the same context as mine.
What's the point of having a meat pie full of gravy, and when you cut into the pie you eat it with parsleysauce. That doesn't make sense.

FACTS RIGHT ...we must have facts right.

I never claimed that a meat pie as sold in the pie and mash shops originally contained minced meat, this is a comparative new idea since WW2 now that minced meat had become popular people complained that the pies were now "Full of brown gunge".

The old fashioned pies used to contain chopped up meat that was put in the pie in its raw state and only contained the juices of the meat as cooked. Now the eel gravy or liquor as it is termed was used to accompany the eel pies in the first instance and continued after the transition from eel to meat but brown gravy to go with the meat pies was available but not popular as people seemed to like the sour taste of vinegar with their pie and mash.........which when you think about it is a alien as having parsley liquor on meat.

My only reference to the contents of pies was the transition from eel to meat and to use minced meat in a pie as served with the old fashioned meal of "Pin 'n mash" is sacriledge.

More to ask.....why put vinegar on the mash ?

most probably because the only condiments available were salt, pepper and vinegar.

[Wohoki]

I frequently go to Tesco skyclad with my clan woad-marks on, but then supermarkets bring out the worst in me.

[Paul Kribs]

My recollection of pie and mash is that the pies did not have a wet interior, and the pie crust was hard and dry, hence the liquer. Without it the meal would have been very dry. I don't know what they are like nowadays as I haven't had any for about 25 years (pie & mash that is)
To be honest, I was never over keen on it with the hard crust and lumpy mash. Like Oddley, I much prefer my own pies and my own mash. I also prefer it with brown gravy, although I must say I like parsley sauce on conger eel and mash..

Regards, Paul Kribs

[jenny_haddow]

I've been reading these posts with interest, having never eaten pie and mash with liquor. My father waxes lyrical about it, but reading some of the descriptions here I cant decide whether this is a delicacy to be savoured or a load of inedible slop. As some of you make your own how about posting a recipe so I can try it out.

Thanks

Jen

[roseway]

paint themselves with woad like the ancient Britons supposedly did.

And those who are interested in this bit of British cultural heritage could do worse than study the words of the National Anthem of the Ancient Britons at http://www.frivolity.com/teatime/Songs_ ... d_ode.html or you can hear it being sung at http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInf ... ID=2364972 (click on the lo-fi or hi-fi button).

Eric

[Oddley]

With traditional dishes like pie and mash it is not only what it is, but the memories in engenders of eating it with friends and family, some who are sadly not with us anymore.

In Britain today I think we have sadly lost our sense of place, our connection to our country though things like staying in one place and having a sense of history from our family having lived for generations in that one place.

These are the things that English people find so attractive when traveling in Europe. They go into a small town where everybody knows everybody else, their families living in the same place for generations, eating the same food. The traveler can feel that these people are comfortable with there surroundings and place and have something that the traveler does not, security. Of course under these circumstances the food will taste better than it actually does because of the place where it is consumed.

[moggy]

In Britain today I think we have sadly lost our sense of place, our connection to our country though things like staying in one place and having a sense of history from our family having lived for generations in that one place.

I couldn't agree more, I think part of getting interested in sausage making and other charcuterie (is there an English word equivalent) is because it was what I grew up with. Try asking for a ham and pease pudding stottie here and you would just get a blank look, as for asking for a fadge, well I just wouldn't dare!! And as to why faggots are called savoury ducks here, i have no idea. My husband had never even heard of white pudding.
It is sort of comforting being able to re-create the dishes of where you were brought up.
It was only just over 100 miles away, but the differences in the regional dishes is huge.

[Oddley]

There ya go Jen. It is most important that you have all the ingredients. If you can't get the eel's or fresh parsley please don't make the dish.

Pie n mash

Ingredients

for liqueur
2 live eels
2 pints water
1 oz butter
1 oz flour
lots of fresh parsley
salt and pepper

for pie
1 lb Puff pastry (bought in or home made)
1 1/2 lbs good beef mince
1 oxo cube
2-3 tbls gravy granules
1 pint water
salt and pepper

and
potato's

Method:
to make the liqueur boil the 2 pints of water then add the cleaned chopped eels turn the heat down to a simmer. Cook until just done, take out the eels and put aside, save the eel stock.

In a large pot make a roux by melting the butter on a low heat add the flour and stir making sure the ingredients are well mixed leave on the low heat stirring for about 10 min's to get rid of the raw flour taste. Slowly add the hot eel stock a ladle at a time and mix well to avoid lumps. Do this until you have the consistency of double cream. now add to the pot loads of finely chopped parsley salt and pepper to taste.

To make the pie filling. Make up a pint of oxo gravy. Fry the minced meat in a little oil until it gets rid of any water and starts to sizzle carry on cooking too brown. now add about half the oxo gravy then sprinkle on the gravy granules and stir. Carry on doing this until you have achieved a thick rich homogenous mix of gravy and meat add salt and pepper.

It is important that the gravy not be to wet or it will just all run out when the pie is cut. It is also important that it not be too dry as it will just form an inedible lump.

To assemble the pies. Butter about 6 individual pie dishes. line with pastry rolled out about 3 mm thick. fill level with filling and top with a pastry lid, brush with egg yolk.

To cook pies. Place all pies in a baine marie filled to about halfway up the pie dishes with boiling water. Cover with aluminum foil and cook at gas mark 6 - 200 oC for about 20 min's take foil off and continue to cook for another 20 -30 min's until pies are browned..

Too serve. reheat eel's in liqueur and serve with pies and mashed potato.

[Wohoki]

For anyone interested in traditional English food I'd recommend "English Food" by Jane Grigson. It's a superb little book, chock full of recipes that'll appeal to the good folks of this forum (including faggots and peas, Cumberland sausage, stewed eels, boiled ox tongue, lots of stuff on salt beef, and so on.) All written up in great style with plenty of history as well. As I said, a great little book.
There are dozens of copies on eBay at the moment.

[moggy]

There are dozens of copies on eBay at the moment.

bad, bad Wohoki!! I can see this forum is going to work out expensive, with so many book recommendations.

[Wohoki]

Humpf, I'll keep these nuggets to myself then

[Rik vonTrense]

As with all wannabee professional chefs we all have our own pet likes and dislikes when it comes to ingredients...........

Personally with me minced meat is a nono it must be chuck steak or similar, chopped fine with remnants of a seasoning marinade put into a half fat to flour pastry case and topped with a similar pastry lid. The cooking method is not important as long as it is given enough time for the meat to cook properlyobviously you want to finish up with a baked pie and not a boiled one.

As far as likker goes.....hot water to dissolve a Knorre fish stock cube with some seasoning to taste and a dash of Nam Pla and add the necessary chopped parsley and thickened with cornflour cooked to a smooth pouring sauce......no need for eels even for authenticity.

Mash is without any butter or milk just Potato through a ricer or masher.

There again there is a difference between the authentic dish as served in the East End and one we would want our familes to to savour.


.

[Oddley]

I have just followed your advice Wohoki and bought it. very reasonable at �3.60 inc P&P

[Wohoki]

You'll like it. It's a good read, as well as a good collection of recipes.

[Fallow Buck]

For anybody that lives in or near Reading then Sweeny Todds is a must. To be honest it is worth the drive for a sunday lunch of pie and mash.

They are the best pies I have ever eaten , (and according to my mates that is some serious pies!!! ) Anyway they also do a Beef and oyster which was a relatively late coming "traditional" pie filing. The oysters were used to bulk out the pies as they were so cheap!! How things change....

I don't know much about the history side but they taste bloody marvelous!!!

Incidentally, When I cook a pie I tend to slow cook the meat first then fill the pie so the pastry is nicely cooked and the meat chunks are tender. Any herbs go in at the lats minute.

Rgds,
FB