First time ham cure/cook questions

[tallchap]

Hi,

Sorry for some obvious beginner questions, but I'm struggling to identify the process I need to follow, as it does not seem to be easily identified and/or doumented in a single place.

I am starting with a reasonably small piece of meat, and have bought the premixed Wiltshire/Old English cure from this site. It does carry some instructions, but does not specify (a) curing time, (b) cooking process, or (c) cooking time.

I have been able to search the forum and read around, and have gleaned enough to assume the following:

A. I should cure the meat for approx 10 days per kilo (minimum 14 days).
B. I should simmer the cured meat.
C. Simmering time is approximately 25 mins per lb plus 25 mins.

Our piece of pork is 2.4kg (5lb 5oz), so I would soak for 24 days and simmer for approx 2 3/4 hours. Does this feel right?

Additional questions arise....

1. The premixed cure instructions say "wash with cold water, drain well and allow to dry" do I do this before simmering?
2. If I wanted to bake the ham, say with a honey glaze, is this an additional process once the simmering is concluded?

Many thanks in advance for any advice anyone is able to give.

We have a lovely piece of Organic Packington Pork and I'd had to ruin it on my first attempt!

[tallchap]

Now I'm even more confused. I found this site through Google...

http://schmidling.netfirms.com/ham.htm

which seems to confirm my assumption about the process (albeit in a slightly american way), HOWEVER the curing time is vastly different.

Here he cures for 4 days for a 3-5lb piece of loin, rather than 14-20 days.

Help!

[Rik vonTrense]

Tallchap....

As I have known Jack for a number of years you cannot go far wrong by adhering to his methods........... but do not try to amalgamate the two forums.

Although Jack advocated a brine bath you can use the dry cure method of rubbing in the cure and bagging it up via vacuum packing for his number of days ...... and the cooking temperatures are most important if you boil it for two or three hours as some want to do it will not taste like ham but boiled bacon.
#
Also with your cure add in some smoke powder about 5% of the cure you use

I usually bring mine to the BOIL and skim the scum and turn it off until the temperature reaches 80C and then keep it cooking at this temperature for one hour....take it out and press it in a smaller saucepan and let it cool and then chill in the fridge

I usually use the top cut of a boned leg so you have a nice one piece muscle of leg meat.


.

[tallchap]

So is the difference of 4 days to the suggested 14-20 days accounted for because one is dry rubbed and vacuum packed as opposed to a brine bath?

I must admit that wasn't my assumption from reading his stuff.

I want to use the brine method, but I'd like to find out how long.

[jpj]

a four day cure is more than likely going to produce a grey pickled pork variety of 'ham' whether it's dry or wet cured.
10 days a kilo produces a well cured ham, however 80 days would be a bit much perhaps for a whole leg (of 8k). washing removes surface salt. leaving it to dry is advantageous for equalisation of salts, and flavour enhancement/maturing time
yes, to glaze with honey is an additional process of baking for a short amount of time.
if you have a concern about cooking times, get a probe thermometer and do it by internal temperature not time taken.
and beware of recipes where the measurements are in cups and spoons. until you know how much of your ingredient fills said cups and spoons, that is

[Paul Kribs]

tallchap

For the amount of meat you are curing to ham using Francos cure I would say soak it in the cure/brine for at least 14 days or 5 days per � kilo, whichever is most..

If you require a glazed ham then, after boiling for the appropriate time, skin the ham, and criss cross the fat and stud with a clove in each diamond. Sprinkle with muscovado sugar and runny honey and cook until it is glazed.. remember the ham is already cooked through boiling, and the glaze is just for show, and a bit of taste. An alternative is to cover the ham in english mustard prior to roasting.. very nice indeed but your decision.

Regards, Paul Kribs.

[dougal]

...
If you require a glazed ham then, after boiling for the appropriate time, skin the ham, and criss cross the fat and stud with a clove in each diamond. Sprinkle with muscovado sugar and runny honey and cook until it is glazed.. remember the ham is already cooked through boiling, and the glaze is just for show, and a bit of taste.

I'm sure that Paul means 'roast' when he says 'cook' in the above.
The basic glaze process is to coat the thing with a flavoursome and decorative coating and get it to stick in place! The cooking is to set the glaze, dry it, or bond it to the meat. So best a brief stay in the oven... (Though I dare say someone will offer a 'glaze' which is boiled into the exterior of the meat!)

There are so many variables. The first thing is to recognise them! Apart from the drycure/brine difference, the cure composition is very important. As an example, Vitamin C in the mix will speed up the action of nitrItes. For a given potency of cure, the time will depend on the thickness of meat that the cure has to penetrate though and permeate. It also varies with temperature, pressure (or vacuum), etc ...
Commercially, curing brine is often injected into the meat. This greatly speeds up the penetration and permeation - but it is putting water into the meat as well as salts and flavourings. Commercially, the brine injected might include phosphate - to retain that water - if nothing else this is good for the profitability of a product sold by weight.
Even the poaching of the ham can be done in a flavoured stock. There's a Mrs Grigson recipe that suggests chucking a trotter into the poaching licquor...
While echoing the advice to pick *one* recipe and stick to it very closely, I'd also point out that earlier writers, including the saintly Mrs Grigson in her Classic "Charcuterie", do call for quantities of saltpetre that nowadays might be thought excessive to the point of unhealthiness.

[pokerpete]

...
If you require a glazed ham then, after boiling for the appropriate time, skin the ham, and criss cross the fat and stud with a clove in each diamond. Sprinkle with muscovado sugar and runny honey and cook until it is glazed.. remember the ham is already cooked through boiling, and the glaze is just for show, and a bit of taste.

I'm sure that Paul means 'roast' when he says 'cook' in the above.
The basic glaze process is to coat the thing with a flavoursome and decorative coating and get it to stick in place! The cooking is to set the glaze, dry it, or bond it to the meat. So best a brief stay in the oven... (Though I dare say someone will offer a 'glaze' which is boiled into the exterior of the meat!)

There are so many variables. The first thing is to recognise them! Apart from the drycure/brine difference, the cure composition is very important. As an example, Vitamin C in the mix will speed up the action of nitrItes. For a given potency of cure, the time will depend on the thickness of meat that the cure has to penetrate though and permeate. It also varies with temperature, pressure (or vacuum), etc ...
Commercially, curing brine is often injected into the meat. This greatly speeds up the penetration and permeation - but it is putting water into the meat as well as salts and flavourings. Commercially, the brine injected might include phosphate - to retain that water - if nothing else this is good for the profitability of a product sold by weight.
Even the poaching of the ham can be done in a flavoured stock. There's a Mrs Grigson recipe that suggests chucking a trotter into the poaching licquor...
While echoing the advice to pick *one* recipe and stick to it very closely, I'd also point out that earlier writers, including the saintly Mrs Grigson in her Classic "Charcuterie", do call for quantities of saltpetre that nowadays might be thought excessive to the point of unhealthiness.

Dougal,
It appears to me that you have been around the commercial block a few times. So starting with Paul and his post let us assume that the gammons were cooked in cook bags in an Ascoli 6P, that gives us two each to play with.
So how would we each go about it starting from the raw pork stage, to the presentation point of sale scenario?

[dougal]

Sorry Pete,
- I am not 'commercial'
- in fact I'm a bit of a newbie at this, albeit a rather geeky one.

My interest in this stuff is in being able to produce a product that is, in my own opinion, in some way or other, 'better' than the easily-avaiable, and economically-attractive, industrially produced products.
And I expect that my fellow newbie, tailchap, is coming from that same direction.
While I may have a passing interest in learning what the industrial practices might be, I have no interest whatsoever in trying to replicate an industrial product at home. And so, frankly I can't be bothered to even Google to discover wtf an "Ascoli 6P" might be. Don't know, don't care. Not relevant to me, or tailchap.
However, replicating a hard-to-get, finely crafted, artisanal product... that is a rather different matter! Hence my passing on Mrs Grigson's tip of poaching the ham in a flavoured (and potentially gelatine-rich) broth - rather than just plain water. I should have said that she also suggests poaching it for a few minutes, and tasting the liquid, then changing the water if it tastes excessively salty. This changing of the water is repeated until the water no longer tastes excessively salty. Only then would the veg, herbs and trotter be added.

[Paul Kribs]

dougal

You're right, I should have put 'roast', but I was answering Tallchap's additional question 2 where he mentions 'roasting'.. just took it for granted.

Regards, Paul Kribs

[dougal]

Paul, I was just trying to be helpful - again in the light of that Q2 - where tailchap asks if glazing is an additional process to the poaching!

[saucisson]

Your post was fine dougal

[Paul Kribs]

dougal

Thats, why we post here.. basically to learn and to help others learn.. it generally all comes out in the wash

Regards, Paul Kribs

[Vernon Smith]

Rik,
How are you? Haven't seen anything from you for a few weeks until I picked up on this thread this evening. I have been going round the topics and threads for 2 days and my head is spinning. There seem to be more ways of making ham than I ever thought possible.
It is at times like this that novices like myself need old hands like you for a lifeline. I am becoming a nervous wreck over this ham business. I know you have been around the butchery trade for ever (perhaps a slight exaggeration) so please put me back on track.
Simply, what brine recipe would you use? Then how would you cure, cold smoke and poach a large ham and how long would each step take?? I must keep the curing brine simple because I can't get things like juniper berries, black treacle, mace, etc. I can get good brown sugar, pepper, salt, cloves, bay, ginger, saltpetre & vinegar but that's about all. Remember my pigs are large so the rear leg without the pelvis could be up to 15kg. Is that too big? I can can cut it in half but I would prefer it whole on the bone for smoking. I don't think I could attempt dry curing because of the climate here. None of the dry cures mention refrigeration and I am sure the ham would rot before it cured. Over to you my guru for all the guidance you can give please before I have a fit. I am sure Dougal and Tallchap would also welcome some pearls of your wisdom. I find the simplest ways are usually by far the best for me. I think Paul has a parma in process but I'm nowhere near that ambitious.
Best regards,
Vernon

[jpj]

sorry not rik here, but for what it's worth:
for a saltpetre based cure, check this out, from oddley:
http://forum.sausagemaking.org/viewtopi ... 92&start=0
presume ALL curing is done under refridgeration
to work out amounts needed put your ham in your tub
cover with water
measure water used
make brine based on that
any non-soluble adjuncts (spices etc) can be added to cure without affecting the science of the recipe
cure legs for 10 days per kilo
however a 15k leg will not need 150 days to cure.
have found that a 10k leg is sufficiently cured in 5 weeks or so
cold smoking has many variables - size of chimney/smoker, closeness to heat source etc etc. on a small scale you'll end up doing it by eye
cooking time is best replaced by internal temperature reaching point (ie 72+c)
inject some brine randomly throughout the meat to kickstart the process
good luck, enjoy