First time ham cure/cook questions

[Rik vonTrense]

Vernon.....

I made up my brine using Franco's wiltshire cure/........

Using a half a boned leg I put in a lidded bucket in the bottom of the fridge for the required number of days then rinsed it off and brought to the bopild in a panfull of water and skimmed it and changed the water then up to 80C and gently simmered it for a couple of hours or so.

Whilst it was hot I skinned it and forced it into a smaller saucepan and put a plate on top and a 10lbs weight an d left it to cool overnight. Next day I put it in the fridgefor a day and it was a very nice colour and taste when I sliced it.




It was nice to the last delicious crumb.......................

[Vernon Smith]

Thanks for your tips jpj & Rik. The ham Rik made looks superlative. I hope I can do as well now that I have a clearer picture of how to proceed. I don't have any Prague #1 (Sodium Nitrite) so I will have to use Saltpetre (Potassium Nitrate). Therefore the idea of injecting the ham with cure appeals to me because it takes longer for the NO3 to kick in than the NO2 in the Prague #1 and I can only reliably refrigerate down to 8 deg. This temperature is good for Paul Kribs' dry bacon cure and my own sausages that I leave in the fridge for 4 days to achieve a nice pink colour before freezing. How much brine (say ml per kg) do you suggest I inject, jpj? The rest seems plain sailing. Cooking at 80 deg us understood. I will have to experiment with a large saucepan and a thermometer to find the gas settings but this shouldn't be too difficult.
I will report back in a few weeks. The pig can be slaughtered this week. Black puddings, brawn, bacon, sausage etc will all fit nicely into the schedule whilst the hams are curing.
Cheers for now,
Vernon

[dougal]

Vernon - you may be interested in this article, stressing the importance of quick and thorough chilling, and scrupulous attention to detail in hygene, to avoid bone sour.
I must say, 8C sounds a little bit high.
Although Morton's are advising using a different brew to inject from that used for immersion, I think that's a refinement for later... But the business of turning it every couple of days and stirring the brine, (which Morton's seem to call 'overhauling'), is stressed by Erlandson, and others.

You seem to have kit for brine injection. I think its conventional to inject brine to about 10% of the ham's weight, if you are going to inject. So that'd be approx 100ml per kg.

Smoking. I note that you have said that you were pleased with the results from cold smoking bacon for just 6 hours.
I also note that Erlandson's suggestion for bacon is cold (24/26C) smoking for 24 hours ("mild") to 7 days ("stronger").
I mention this to provide an opportunity to cross-calibrate between his smoking technique and yours, so that you can scale appropriately his advice of ham smoking temperatures of 26/21C and times of 48 hours to six weeks (which need not be continuous). Indeed he advocates starting to eat it while it is still part smoked...

[jpj]

the convention for 10% brine injection is to keep water out as a commercially listed ingredient (ie any more than 10% and you have to list water as an added ingredient). if low temp refridgeration is (and in this case, seems to be an issue) it may be advisable to input a bit more.
if you can get access to a freezer you may be able to use sealed ice blocks. those blue things you see for cool bags. i've double vac-packed crushed ice and thus have re-usable bags that can help chill but also aid submersion of product. make sure they are thoroughly cleaned before each re-use . . .
if you embark on longer periods of smoking, in a warmer climate, keep a close eye on the hams for possible mold growth, don't worry about it too much just wipe off with vinegar or cooking spirits. best to remove and rest them in the chiller between each session (ie if you're smoking at night, bung it in the fridge during the day)

[Vernon Smith]

Tks for your exchange of information Dougal and jpj. I got cold feet when it came to curing a 15 kg ham on the bone so I borrowed a 6.5kg leg from a friend and put that into cure after injecting with 650ml cure (65 shots of 10ml because I haven't a larger syringe). I used a basic cure with 3% KNO3. Actually, jpj refrigeratrion isn't a problem but I only go to 8 deg C. I posted a new topic under "chatter" on this subject yesterday to get some dialogue going on "bacteria in curing". Have a quick look and see if my hypothesis makes sense. There seem to be a lot of conflicting opinions on time taken to cure. Jpj's formula is about 1 week per 2kg so lets say 4 days per kg to be safe. My ham should therefore be cured in 26 days. Then 3 or 4 days to dry followed by 2 to 5 days in the smoker. Does that sound about right guys? Due to the climate here my "cold" smoker operates at about 40 deg C during the day and about 25 deg at night but I don't see that as being a problem.

Finally, for now, Tallchap, I have just noticed that nobody has said welcome to this Forum yet so please allow me that pleasure. Welcome! I am a new member too (February this year) and I have been overwhelmed by the help given by the old hands. I raise my own pigs and now make superlative sausages, bacon and other pork products as a result of the excellent advice that I have been given. You won't find a better membership anywhere. Persevere, as I did, and you will be delighted with the results.
Regards to all,
Vernon Smith

[jpj]

vernon, you'll learn by trial (and hopefully not too much error) that curing times are all hypothetical. just from experience i can say that my whole (boned) legs (7-9k) are sufficiently cured after 4-5 weeks, including a 10% injection. if you're going to rest and then smoke, curing will be continuing as the salts continue to travel. this goes for full immersion and wet cure styles.

however when i've done multiple hams based on identical cures, times, environments etc. have sometimes found spots in the centre which aren't as pink as desired. but not desired that much to get cross about it

i'd like to do a leg bone-in but prefer to be able to do nice big slices, so usualy bone it, and proceed with curing loose then roll it tight before smoking/cooking

[Vernon Smith]

Hello everybody,
I took my 6.5 kg ham out of cure after 24 days then hung it to dry and equilibriate the cure for a further 2 days (nice pellicle) and put it in the smoker yesterday. Smoking for 12 hours during the day and resting overnight. It looks like a 4 day smoking to achieve the flavour I'm after according to jpj. I am a bit concerned about cooking though. Rik says he does his at 80 deg C for a couple of hours. Jpj says 72 deg internal temperature but no mention of how long at that level. I haven't a probe so that will be a difficult method for me to try. Paul doesn't mention much about temperature when he made his ham. Help guys please.
Which should I attempt? BTW Rik, how did you control the 80 deg? I have a large pot a thermometer and a gas ring but that all sounds a bit hit and miss or am I placing too much emphasis on what seems to be an 80deg threshold?
Regards
Vernon

[Wohoki]

Hi Vernon, when I cook hams I keep the water at a temperature such that it would simmer if I turned the gas up just a nudge, if that makes any sense to you. I test the core temperature with a spike thermometer and when it hits the mid 70's I just turn it off, put a tight lid on and let it cool in the liquor, which finishes off the cooking and allows the ham to take on some of the stock. When it's at room temperature I skin and crumb, or dress and bake, whichever.

Any use?

[Paul Kribs]

Vernon

When I boil my hams I subscribe to the well tested method of cooking for 20 minutes per lb (450 grams) plus 20 minutes. Place the ham in a large pot and cover with cold water. Bring up to the boil and then drain. Return the ham to the pot and again cover with cold water and add any flavouring ingredients at this time ( bay leaves, veggies peppercorns etc). Again, bring up to the boil and lower the heat to a slow simmer, water just moving. Skim any scum with a slotted spoon. The cooking time is calculated from this point. After cooking, just allow the ham to cool in the cooking liquer before removing, this retains succulence.

If you wish to roast your ham, proceed as above but remove the ham as soon as the cooking time is up. Cover with foil and place in a roasting tray in a preheated oven, gas 4, 180�C, 350�F, for 30 minutes. Remove foil and skin from the ham, leaving a good layer of fat. Score the fat in criss-cross diamond pattern and stud each diamond with dried cloves. Sprinkle some demerara sugar over and press into the fat. Return it to the oven and bake for another 30 minutes at gas 7, 220�C, 425�F.

I like to let the ham cool in both cases and eat at room temperature, but do store it in the fridge.

Regards, Paul Kribs

[Vernon Smith]

Sorry guys I'm still in trouble. I haven't a spike thermometer Wohoki and Paul what size are the hams you cook? Mine is 6.5kg so your method of 20min per lb plus 20 min over would take 5 hours 20 min. That seems an incredibly long time. Rik says 2 and a bit hours so I'm wondering if the 20 min per lb method has an upper limit beyond which you wouldn't go regardless of size. By the same principle 4 days per kg in brine is fine for hams up to 6 kg say 24 days but a 12 kg ham doesn't take 48 days. Back you you again. BTW Paul room temperature here is between 28 and 35 deg so I shall have to refrigerate.
Regards,
Vernon

[dougal]

... I'm wondering if the 20 min per lb method has an upper limit beyond which you wouldn't go regardless of size. ...
BTW Paul room temperature here is between 28 and 35 deg ...

I dunno about this, but I do have Mrs Grigson's tome "Charcuterie", in which under "Cooking ham and salt pork", she says
- home cured hams given "prolonged curing followed by smoking" should be soaked in water "overnight", before cooking. The preliminary boiling might take the place of this, but I doubt a quick boil would make much difference to the saltiness of the middle of the meat.
- for hams *between* 5 and 10 lb she quotes 20 mins per pound plus 20 minutes. For hams over 10 lb she refers to a graph. Against 14.3 lb (6.5 kg) I read off approx 3 3/4 hours.

Its interesting that you are having similar daytime temperatures to much of Southern England...

[Paul Kribs]

Vernon

The hams I have made thus far haven't exceeded 4 kg's, and have all been boned and roll tied. Although I currently have one of 5 kg's (bone in) curing in a wiltshire brine. I did wonder at the length of cooking time for a larger ham such as yours but couldn't find any reference, so Dougals info of Grigsons guidelines will be of use to me. I also have the dilemma that my larget stew pot is only 2 gallon capacity and I will be unable to completely cover the ham with liquid when cooking, so it looks like another 'Heath Robinson' set up using a tinfoil dome and steaming the top end of the ham.. I can't warrant investing in a larger vessel as normally it's just me and the wife, but I have done the larger ham to coincide with my son's arrival next week. To breadcrumb or glaze, that is the question.

Regards, Paul Kribs

[Paul Kribs]

The ham cooking chart is posted by Parson Snows..

http://forum.sausagemaking.org/viewtopic.php?t=396&highlight=cooking

Regards, Paul Kribs

[Vernon Smith]

Absolute disaster!
I carefully followed all the instructions, curing for 26 days in Paul's brine recipe after injecting with 10% of the ham weight with the cure, then hanging for 2 days then smoking for 4 X 12 hour days and resting overnight. Then came 2 days soaking in fresh water and the cooking following the graph posted by Parson Snows and Mrs. Grigson for 3.3/4 hours.

I set everything up and watched the ham for the required time with thermometer in place slowly climbing to a steady 85 deg C and NEVER getting anywhere near boiling point. After cooling overight in the water, skinning and a further 24 hours chilling I got a piece of overcooked BACON that is so salt nobody can eat it although we tried. It is so dry inside that it crumbles when sliced and sticks in your throat if you are brave enough to try some.

I frankly think the cooking time is COMPLETELY WRONG. I suspected 3.3/4 hours was way over the top and I was right. Wohoki, your spike thermometer method seems much nearer the mark. Ham should be moist and flexible yet firm to the knife when slicing, and a completely different flavour to bacon. Is that how yours turns out? How long do you reckon something like 6kg on a very slow heat would take to reach your prescribed mid 70's? Much less than 3.3/4 hours I am sure. Next question about the curing. Does anyone know how to reduce the saltiness of the ham? Dare I reduce the amount of salt in the solution?

Any thoughts anyone on the 10% by weight injecting I did? I'm thinking that after injecting, 26 days in cure is also over the top allowing too much salt to be absorbed. To say I'm as miffed as a bear with a sore **se is an understatement.
I luvya all really.
Vernon

[dougal]

Vernon, did you by any chance weigh it
- after curing?
- after smoking?
- and after boiling?

Weighing would give you an idea as to brine pickup, water loss and then gain.

Commercially, phosphates are used to retain lots of water, but I think your problem sounds like you've lost an awful lot of water to get "dry" meat even after 4 hours of stewing and soaking/cooling overnight. (Just a by-the-way, how did you keep it fully submerged?)


I noted previously that your bacon smoking times seemed rather short and inferred that your smoking was fairly intense. Do you know what temperatures you hit during the smoking?

The smoking would be the obvious suspect for both excess water loss and excess heat.
Excess water loss (dryness) will produce excess 'saltiness' even if an appropriate quantity of salt actually went in.
Regarding your description of this as being "bacon", I note that much american 'bacon' is deliberately *hot* smoked.

There is no way that over-cooking it at the 'boiling' stage should produce a 'dry' result.

When you roast or grill meat, you are deliberately trying to get different heat exposures for the outside (seared) and the middle (to 70C or so).
But here, you are trying to get an even result throughout the meat.
The rate of heat flow depends on the temperature difference. Because you want to raise the internal temperature while minimising the difference between outside and inside, it will take a long time.


Just as an incidental, ParsonSnow's graph shows the result of strict application of the 'rules' on the inset panel.
For practical application, it should be redrawn, smoothing out the kink.


OK. Rescuing the situation. I'd be thinking of calling it gammon, slicing it about 1/8", poaching it in unsalted (but maybe flavoured) liquor, and serving it warm.