WANTING TO MOVE OVER TO DRIED/CURED FROM FRESH....

[Ken D]

I'd like to move over to cervelats, salamis, etc.. from fresh, or fresh smoked.
"Web" searches reveals several products to alter the ph. "Lactic acid starter culture", and "Fermento" appear to the big guns out there.
Both are available in my home province from Stuffers.
To the question:
A: will I detect a major flavour difference from one to the other, in the same basic sausage formula.
B: Has a poster here actually used both, and come up with a favourite.
The web is full of formulae promoting both styles of 'sour-off', and I may as well go with the pros here.
Thanks a ton. KD.

[Bad Flynch]

Ken,

I cannot answer all of your questions, but can only answer from my limited experience.

I make an old-time garlic summer sausage; it is a recipe I got from an old butcher who made the stuff for me when I was a boy (early 1950s). That recipe calls for a 4-day curing period, during which the naturally occurring bacteria in the meat develop the tang and convert some of the nitrate to nitrite. That is great, as long as everything goes according to plan and the temperature is well controlled during the fermenting process. It leaves a little to chance, however.

The modern products remove a lot of the chance from the process. They supply a known quantity of correctly identified bacteria. In addition, they are know to be viable cultures. That sometimes will give you a stronger ferment than you would get relying on the naturally occurring bacteria and, hence, a tangier flavor than an old product might normally have. It also almost certainly guarantees a fit product.

The old butcher from whom I got the recipe admitted that making the stuff was not always a sure-fire process. The Fermento can help eliminate some of the surprises.

I suggest that you buy a small quantity of each and try a batch. The batches of sausage so produced will still be fit to eat; they just might not be quite exactly the same. You may prefer one or the other of the products depending on which sausage you are making. And then, too, not all sausages are meant to be tangy, either.

[Ken D]

Acknowledged, B/Fly........Thanks.....back to the web for a sec: Proponents of lactic acid starter ferociously discount both users of, and the Fermento product itself. The language they chose was awfully strong, for a stranger opining about another stranger.
Anyway, your suggestion of two trial batches was next on the to do list, after input from the forum.
In the earlier days, I "fluked" into the tang from the meat proper, while smoking a batch of bratwurst.
I did not add any cure of any kind, because I was unaware of any potential trips to the hospital dying of botulism !
I guess I beat the odds, just like the millions of folks from the year of Our Lord 01 through the middle ages and beyond.....when the scientists finally learned about nitrate/nitrites' inhibition capabilities RE: botulum (sp) spores.
The formulae I located (and wish to try) either ask for powdered buttermilk, fermento, lactic acid culture, etc, so I suspect they are intended to be a little sour.
Best, KD

[Big Guy]

I have made sausage using both products and really can't tell the difference. The fermento is easier to use and doesn't have a shelf life. I also have used citric acid to get the tang and it works too. Although I did have a problemwhile using the citric acid, of the mince setting up overnight and it was extreemly hard to force through my stuffer. I am a fan of Fermento for ease of use and good results.

[Bad Flynch]

> Proponents of lactic acid starter ferociously discount both users of, and the Fermento product itself.<

Strange, I thought that Fermento was a lactic acid starter, being composed of friendly bacteria that convert the natural glucose in the meat to lactic acid. The only difference was that there was a good, solid start to the process. Perhaps the other product's proponents have an economic interest in discounting Fermento. At any rate, one can add the requisite amount of food-grade Lactic Acid diretly, as an expedient, and stuff immediately.

> problemwhile using the citric acid, of the mince setting up overnight <

I think that this is related to having the binder added during the ferment and it forms a paste-like glue, not unlike library paste. Perhaps the lowered pH exacerbates the problem. My old recipe adds Heller's Bull Meat Flour as a binder and calls for its addition to the meat before the ferment. Now that the Heller's is difficult to obtain, other binders are in use. Some of the proponents of these other binders warn about letting the stuff sit for a number of days to ferment, as it will cause this setting-up effect.

[Ken D]

Well, there you go. I did not know that fillers would react with the acidifer. I do now !!!
From the Stuffers page, the makeup of fermento they market:
http://tinyurl.com/2ueyp4

[Bad Flynch]

>INGREDIENTS: CORN SYRUP SOLIDS, GLUCONA DELTA LACTONE, SODIUM ERYTHORBATE<

Corn Syrup Solids=glucose and fructose, mostly. Maybe a little starch left over from processing, but hardly any. Food for the bacteria.

Glucona Delta Lactone=Lowers pH

Sodium Erythorbate=Sodium salt of Vitamin C isomer, used as anti-oxidant. It would raise the pH a little, depending on the amount.

Hmmm... Seems as if they are ingredients that promote the growth of friendly bacteria and, thereby, the proper acidification of the mix. However, they do not provide any starter culture. Now I can see why the comment by others.

If you have a reference to the composition of the other products, e.g,, the starters mentioned, I would very much appreciate it

[Ken D]

Hio again b/flynch.......I wrote the company to see if they will advise what's in the culture they market.... it's a European product, called Bessastart. I suspect it's a freeze dried lactic acid strain. All search engine queries point to Germany, but unsure if they are the country of origin.

Here's a sample reference RE: Fermento....scroll to fermentation...
http://tinyurl.com/2zomqg

[sausagemaker]

Hi KenD & B/F

Bessastart is indeed a starter culture from Germany in fact the it is made by the company I work for, see link below
http://www.moguntia.com/
I can tell you it needs to be kept in the fridge & is very expensive, although the usage is 30g per 50 kg of meat
I am sure if you need any you could drop a line to Franco & I could supply him.
If he does not want to get into this PM me & I will give you another supplier.
By the way we are looking for an agent in Canada if your regular supplier is interested

Regards
Sausagemaker

[Bad Flynch]

>I suspect it's a freeze dried lactic acid strain<

Well, this gets really interesting. If, indeed it is a strain of something like Lactobacillus acidophilus, then it should be quite a bit more help than Fermento alone. Perhaps it has the added foodstuffs and pH modifiers to make the bacteria grow better, too. We'll just have to see. In any event, I appreciate your trouble.

It also brings up a question about the exact strain of bacteria and any adjunct bacteria or yeasts that have been added. Although it is lost to me now, the French have a saying that translates roughly as "the taste of the place." It acknowledges that the soils, climate, yeast, and bacteria strains all have a contribution to a product that is local. An example is sourdough bread from San Francisco, where not only does one have the usual yeast, but also a bacteria that is local to S.F. that gives the bread a particularly tangy flavor.

Would we, when making sausage, be better off to seek a certain strain of starter for, say, Thuringer summer sausage? Would it even make a difference? Do the bangers of Great Britain need British meats and fillers to really have the right taste? Does the Emperor really have new clothes? American Bleu Cheese, does not taste like either of Stilton or Roquefort.

Maybe someone will know.

[Ken D]

Hio, s/maker....Stuffers is carrying Bessastart already:
http://tinyurl.com/yo3twj
And yes: it's pretty spendy all right. Oh well... what price good taste, I guess.
I got a reply to my e-mail to them: it says to use fermento as a food supply for the starter culture.
BIG GUY: are you using fermento as a stand alone sour agent, or do you use both? I suspect if you use just the fermento, you are catching some already present strains of bacteria, to sour off?
(After Sept 11/01, things changed dramatically re the relationship between the Yalls, and the Canucks. And of course the rest of the world as well.
But that's a whole other story.
Many Canadian companies won't send south, because of all the related paperwork dealing with the threat on bio-terrorism.
I suspect it's the same coming the other way.)
Several USA vendors have starter culture, at about the same price after conversion of monies. I'm nervous to try and import, in case our over-zealous customs agents block the shipment.

[Bad Flynch]

Krn,

Thanks for asking the questions. Noe, because of you, I have better information than I have had previously. Keep making sausage and I hope that you find some way to get the stuff imported at a reasonable price.

[Ken D]

I found this page moments ago: chances are good they won't deal with small potato type operations, but it's good info all the same.
Maybe somebody knows somebody's friend of a friend....
http://tinyurl.com/2drlfu