Corned beef

[johnfb]

Corned beef

Hi All

Anyone got a good recipe for making corned beef.

I would hope to use a brine and dunk some silverside or brisket into it but I dont how for how long, most info I have says 5-10 days.

So if anyone has a nice brine recipe and a trusted length of imersion time I would be most greatful.
I was thinking of buying the corned beef mix from this site but really would like to make my own..I will add saltpetre to the mix for the classic red colour as I have seen the darker colour and don't like the look of it although I believe the taste is the same...this is just a matter of preferance.

The following is a recipe I got from freedomway on the net....any comments:

2-3 kg Piece of Beef (Silverside or Brisket)
A Bouquet Garni
1 Carrot, Chopped
1 Onion, Chopped
1 Celery Stick, Chopped
1 Leek, Chopped
1 whole Bulb of Garlic (cut this in half across the middle)


Brine
5 Litres Water
500g light brown sugar
1.5 kg coarse sea salt
1 Teaspoon Black Peppercorns
1 teaspoon Juniper Berries
5 Cloves
2 Bay Leaves
Thyme
Parsley stalks
50g Saltpetre (Optional)
� Place all the ingredients for the Brine in a large saucepan over a low heat and stir until the sugar and salt have dissolved.
� Bring to the boil and allow to boil for 1-2 minutes, then remove the pan from the heat and allow to cool completely.
� Place the beef in a plastic or ceramic container (not Metal) and cover the beef completely with the cold brine. You may have to weight the beef down if it floats, it must be completely immersed in the brine.
� Place the container in a cool place or fridge for 5-10 days. How long you leave the beef in the brine depends on how big the piece of meat is and how salty you want the end result to be. If your beef is less than 3kg it should not be left for more than 7 days.
� Once you have left the beef for the required amount of time, remove from the brine and soak the beef in fresh cold water for 24 hours, changing the water at least once.
� Now place the beef in a pan with the bouquet garni , vegetables and garlic and cover with fresh water.
� Bring slowly to the boil and simmer very gently for 2 � - 3 hours or until tender.
This beef is delicious served either hot or cold. If you are serving it cold, allow it to cool in the liquid you cooked it in and then take it out and store it in the fridge.



Thanks in advance

John

[Oddley]

John the recipe you posted if done with 3 K/g meat will give about 1660 mg/Kg of saltpetre ingoing and about 5% salt that's why they say to soak it.

I have only calculated the recipe with 3 K/g meat, with smaller amounts the levels may well be a lot different.

That's the problem with immersion cures, small differences can vary ingoing amounts tremendously. Even to dangerous levels.

I make corned beef all the time, I know the exact amounts ingoing and the time to leave it. If cooked two hours in a pressure cooker under 15 lbs pressure, it comes out so tender it melts on the tongue and tastes like corned beef should.

Get yourself a cheap injector, info on where HERE. Then have a look at my corned beef recipe HERE. If you want to make it and need any help with it post your questions and I will try to help.

[johnfb]

Thanks Oddley
Your help is appreciated.
What do you think of me trying the pre-made cure for corned beef on this site first...seems to me that this might be a simple first step and then move on to my own mix.

My main question would be...do you think that 50g of saltpetre as in the recipe I found is too high...the rest of the recipe seems to be very staright forward.

thanks
John

[Oddley]

John, I can't comment on the corned beef cure, as I have never used it, perhaps some one else can help.

Immersion cures are difficult to understand, the longer you leave the meat in the more the chemicals will dissipate through the meat, to equilibrium. Basically this means the smaller the piece of meat the more it will absorb in a smaller amount of time. The recipe calls for a 3 K/g piece of meat I have calculated in the time given the meat will absorb the amount of salt and saltpetre I have said.

In my opinion the salt and saltpetre is too much.

[wheels]

Oddley

Can you help please with the calculations for equilibrium cures?
I assume that in the recipe above you used Method 2 on page 22 of the FDA handbook for your calculations?
This refers to calculations for NitrIte. When you use this for Saltpetre (NitrAte) you don't appear to just assume that this is 100% NitrIte - I can tell this because if you did the PPM would be 4975PPM!
You appear to treat the Saltpetre as 33% nitrIte - am I correct in my assumption?

Regards
Phil

[Oddley]

Hi Wheels

The above is not really an equilibrium cure. It is a dunk it in and hope it's all right cure. if it were an equilibrium cure the ingoing saltpetre and salt for a 3 K/g piece of meat ignoring the fat would be 4975 mg/Kg saltpetre and 14.9254 % salt.

For a 3 K/g piece of meat I would expect it to take about 30 days to cure to equilibrium (10 days a Kg). So for 10 days I would expect it to dissipate 1/3 of the ingredients that it would at equilibrium. Giving a residual amount in the meat of 1658.33~ mg/Kg saltpetre and 4.975133~ % salt I rounded it all up because firstly these are only going to be ball park figures dissipation rates being so diverse etc. Secondly I didn't want to be too pedantic.

Yes I did base my calculations on:

Then divided by 3.

These days I don't actually do the calc, I have written the little util to work out percentages, this can also be used to work out cures. As you can see I have put the weight of the soluble ingredients plus meat in the Initial Amount box and the weight of saltpetre in the Amount to % box, the answer is in the Amount to Percent box ie: 0.4975 %. A small calc.

0.4975 % x 1000
--------------------- x 1000 = 4975 mg/Kg saltpetre
100

If you are asking me how much potassium NitrAte is converted to Potassium NitrIte the answer is it can be nothing, or I believe up to about 80% depending on the bloom of bacteria.

I hope this goes some way to explaining why I don't like to calculate immersion cures any more especially the dunk and hope method.

[wheels]

Many thanks Oddley,

I love the description "It is a dunk it in and hope it's all right cure" sort of sums it up really!
This method of calculation for equilibrium curing produces different results for different meat weights so, in theory, a brine may be fine for a 5kg piece but not for a 2kg piece in the same brine.
I too stick to pump/injection curing when brining for this very reason.
Thanks again
Phil

[saucisson]

I got my brine injector from the www.thebbq.co.uk site in the end, because the one from the States got lost in the post. All credit to the US ebay seller though, as he gave me a full refund.

[Oddley]

Have you tried any recipes with it, if so how did they come out?

[johnfb]

John, I can't comment on the corned beef cure, as I have never used it, perhaps some one else can help.

Immersion cures are difficult to understand, the longer you leave the meat in the more the chemicals will dissipate through the meat, to equilibrium. Basically this means the smaller the piece of meat the more it will absorb in a smaller amount of time. The recipe calls for a 3 K/g piece of meat I have calculated in the time given the meat will absorb the amount of salt and saltpetre I have said.

In my opinion the salt and saltpetre is too much.

Ok..confused (although that's not too hard to do)

My next question is:
How many grames per kilo of saltpetre is ok to us in a simple brine as mentioned in my opening post and what amount of salt is ok to use?

I quote your other post, Oddley:

A safe level is between 0.5 - 1 gram per Kg of meat.

You don't have to cover the meat with water, but do turn the meat every day. I would also suggest you knock the salt level down to 3% of the meat weight ie: 30 grams per Kg of meat.

So for my 3 kilos of meat that equates to only 3 grammes of saltpetre as opposed to the recipe quantity of 50 grammes???

Can I take this to be ok????

If you were using the recipe on my first post can you tell me what amount in grammes you would use for that cure and fill in the qty you would be happy to suggest for each entry...sorry to be a pain but all this science has confused the hell out of me.

thanks in advance for your help




I thought this was going to be real easy...guess again John

[Oddley]

Hi John

I won't calculate a dunk and hope brine cure because they can be, if used wrongly dangerous, especially, by someone who doesn't understand them.

An equilibrium brine cure can be ok to use, but this must be calculated on meat weight. This method is no good for you because you don't understand how to do it.

You don't seem to want to do a dry cure, or a pump cure, so this basically rules everything out apart from buying a commercial cure and following the instructions.

Perhaps there are others on here that may be able to help. Please don't take this post wrong as I don't mean to be rude or condescending or anything else. I would like to see you do a safe successful piece of corned beef.

[johnfb]

Hi John

I won't calculate a dunk and hope brine cure because they can be, if used wrongly dangerous, especially, by someone who doesn't understand them.

An equilibrium brine cure can be ok to use, but this must be calculated on meat weight. This method is no good for you because you don't understand how to do it.

You don't seem to want to do a dry cure, or a pump cure, so this basically rules everything out apart from buying a commercial cure and following the instructions.

Perhaps there are others on here that may be able to help. Please don't take this post wrong as I don't mean to be rude or condescending or anything else. I would like to see you do a safe successful piece of corned beef.

Hi Oddley,
Thanks and I take your comments on board.
I hoped to use the dunk method as it seemed to be the most straight forward, luckily for me I posted it and found out it really isn't that easy afterall.

I would definitely try a dry cure method and I am posting the dry cure one from the same website as follows:

2 � -3 kg Lean Beef Brisket or Silverside

500g Coarse Salt
4 tablespoons Soft Brown Sugar
2 tablespoons Black Peppercorns, coarsely crushed
1 tablespoon Coriander Seeds, coarsely crushed
10 Juniper Berries, crushed
1 teaspoon Saltpetre
1 Bay Leaf, crushed
� tablespoon Ground Mace
� tablespoon Ground Ginger
� tablespoon Whole Cloves, crushed

Place the beef in a ceramic or plastic container (not metal) rub half of the salt really well into the beef.
Cover the container with clingfilm and refrigerate for 12 hours, turning once.
Remove the meat from the container, rinse and dry well with kitchen towels.
Mix all of the other ingredients together and rub the mixture into the beef, ensuring the whole of the beef is covered.
Place the beef into the cleaned container. Cover with clingfilm and refrigerate for 10 days. Turn the beef every day.
After 10 days, remove from the refrigerator and rinse well.
Place in a saucepan of simmering unsalted water and simmer gently for 3-3� hours or until tender.
If serving hot, add vegetables (onions, carrot, swedes , turnips, etc.) for the final 35-40 minutes of cooking.
If serving cold, place the beef in a tight fitting container, cover with a plate (or similar) and stand a heavy weight on top.
When cold place in the refrigerator overnight.


What do you think of this one...again the saltpetre issue !!!

Actually this would be my preferred method but as already stated I thought the other was easier...you know...dunk and leave it to do its thing.

thanks for your time on this

john

[Oddley]

Hi John, Having a look at the recipe I would do the following. Apart from that just rub the meat with all the ingredients and put in a bag or box for the required amount of time.

1: Use Saltpetre, at the rate of 1 g per Kg of meat. No more.
2: Use salt, at 30 g per Kg of meat.
3: Use sugar, at 15 g per Kg of meat.
4: Store meat in cure at, 6�C or 42.8�F ( top shelf of fridge).
5: Use a food grade bag, to store curing meat in.
6: Don't let the meat come in contact with any metal, including aluminium foil.
7: Follow your recipe, for all other ingredients and methods.

[Oddley]

Re reading my above post I feel I might have been a bit abrupt. So too explain my reasoning.

The idea behind the rubbing on of the 250 g of salt for 12 hours in the recipe, is to draw out some of the liquid. After you wash the meat off you will probably be left with say 100 g of salt on the meat, plus 250 g of added salt in the next stage of the recipe, this makes 350 g of salt dissipated throughout the meat, which is for a 3 Kg piece of meat, approx 12% This is extremely salty, and would have been ok for the days before refrigeration.

Therefore my recommendation to reduce the salt level. On the other hand as long as you stick to the suggested 1 g of saltpetre per Kg of meat you can in safety follow the rest of the recipe exactly if you so desire.

I hope this helps

[saucisson]

Have you tried any recipes with it, if so how did they come out?

I haven't used it yet as I'd made all my Christmas joints by the time it arrived. When I do I'll be following your pump and dry rub instructions.

Dave