FDA Processors calcs.Is method one viable for home curers.

[captain wassname]

To be honest Phil the whole chaprer makes my brain hurt it seems as though + or - of 20% is allowable. butwe are not privy to the methods used by industrial producers.
Jim

[wheels]

Jim

I want to really have another look at this - why? I don't know; Masochism I guess; no-one in their right mind would!

My real concern at the moment, is not as many would think, having too much nitrites/nitrates, but having too little.

I'm going back into a hole to think; hopefully in the meantime, the curing fairy God-mother will appear and explain it all to us.

OK, wishful thinking!

Our major problem has been that we haven't had access to the relevant information, or the resources to find out for ourselves - so we've been guessing in the dark, but we do have the knowledge of our experience and so I am confident that our forum still offers the safest cures on the web.

Hopefully, NC Paul's research will be able to help us to make them even better.

Phil

[NCPaul]

our forum still offers the safest cures on the web

I wouldn't be here otherwise!

Here is what I'm planning roughly (I'll provide the exact weights when I set it up on the weekend), please check this over for me.

1200 g meat (boneless pork loin)
600 g brine

brine
1.26 g saltpetre
60 g salt
30 g sugar
508.7 g water
spices

[wheels]

This will give roughly 700PPM Nitrate, 3.3% saly if method 2 or 210PPM, 1% salt if method 1.

The meat weight is obviously neither large nor small so knowing which method the US inspectors believe should be used is difficult.

Using saltpetre also complicates it slightly because of (I assume) the longer time for it to react and/or reach equilibrium. We also cannot be sure that it is absorbed at the same rate as the salt, we certainly know that nitrites are unlikely to be, and that saltpetre has to convert to nitrite before working.

We await your results with interest.

Phil

[NCPaul]

I was concerned about using nitrate as well; if it would make for a more useful experiment (and with Oddley's kind premission), I can change this to a nitrite cure. I have cure # 1 at 6.25 % sodium nitrite and would use the following instead:

1200 g meat
600 g brine

brine:
16 g cure #1
45 g salt
30 g sugar
509 g water
spices

[wheels]

Yes, there's no doubt that changing it makes it easier but given that we know that nitrite acts extremely quickly, will the salt also react in the same way? If not, and I assume that to be the case, we can't surmise that the nitrite pick-up will be similar.

...and given that nitrite reduces, we can't judge anything about the total ingoing amount from analysis part way into the curing period. What we can do though is see whether the residual levels are safe. A different but very useful thing.

It gets more and more frustrating the more I think about it.

Some members may find the next bit offensive, I only add it to illustrate the stupidity of some methods of cure calculation:

Can someone check these figures please:

If NCPaul uses 16gm cure #1 at 6.25% nitrite that is 1 gm of pure nitrite.

He is using 1200gm (1.2kg) meat, so the maximum available nitrite is 0.833gm per kg. 0.833gm per kg x 1.2 (kg) being 1gm.

0.833gm is 833mg. 0.833g per kg is 833mg per kg or 833PPM.

Calculation of his cure using method 2 tells us that his nitrite level will be 522PPM (mg/kg).

This would mean that method 2 is saying that his meat has absorbed 522 (mg/kg) *1.2 (the kg of meat) = 626mg of the total available nitrite - that's over ¾ of the available nitrite.

So they're saying that ¾ of the brine cure has passed through the meat, left it's nitrite behind, and come out the other side. Come on, get real, it's a lump of dead animal not a bloomin' oyster!

Of course if NCPaul uses a piece of meat weighing 500gm, method 2 will tell us that it comes out with more nitrite in it that was in the cure in the first place! The remaining water/brine would then be nitrite free?

It makes you wonder why the water authorities have such a problem removing excess nitrates from our water supply when all they need is a bacon curer!

Please don't anyone take this is a criticism of them, I do want to pursue this interesting aspect of curing, but felt the need to highlight some of the anomalies of the system in the best way I know (albeit somewhat brutal).

In some ways I'm just highlighting what Oddley said about the application of experience and common sense.

Phil

[saucisson]

Do we worry too much...

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u25u167218168966/

Dave

[wheels]

Yes, and a lot of 'chemical free' bacon/ham uses celery juice which is high in nitrates!

[Oddley]

Recipe Used

1200 g meat
600 g brine

brine:
16 g cure #1
45 g salt
30 g sugar
509 g water
spices

Calculating Ingoing Nitrite Using Method 2

grams premixed cure # 1 * % Nitrite in mix × 1,000,000
----------------------------------------------------------------------- = ppm
100 * (green weight (gram) meat block + gram pickle)

16 * 6.25 × 1,000,000
---------------------------- = 555 mg/Kg meat
100 * 1800

1200 g meat = 666 mg nitrite
left in brine = 334 mg Nitrite

Using the same method for the salt. As I don't see any difference between salt and Nitrite.

Calculating Ingoing Salt Using Method 2

gram salt × 1,000,000
---------------------------------------------------------------- = ppm
green weight (gram) meat block + gram pickle x 1000

60 × 1,000,000
-------------------- = 33g/Kg meat
1800 X 1000

1200 g meat = 40g salt
left in brine = 20g salt

Calculating Ingoing Sugar Using Method 2

gram sugar × 1,000,000
------------------------------------------------------------ = ppm
green weight (gram) meat block + gram pickle

30 × 1,000,000
-------------------- = 16667 mg/Kg meat
1800

1200 g meat = 17g sugar
left in brine = 13g sugar

Therefore with rounding up there will be, ingoing into the meat 57 g of chemicals, or 4.75 % of the meat weight. Notice, I have ignored the water as this is just a carrier for the chemicals.

[wheels]

Cor, it's just not my day, here's my cure calculation - as you can see it bears no resemblance to what I wrote.



It doesn't affect the point I'm making though - using the new figures kindly supplied by Oddley, we can see that either 2/3rds of the brine has had it's chemicals extracted:

1200 g meat = 666 mg nitrite
left in brine = 334 mg Nitrite

..or that 400ml of the 600ml brine has 'passed through' the meat, leaving behind all it's chemicals?

Do you think that either of these is the case, or have you another theory, Oddley?

The thing that is still true is that, if you use a piece of meat of 500gm it will, in theory, extract all the nitrite from the brine (and given what both Oddley and I believe about the salt and sugar, that too) leaving just the water!

(I realise that's a little facetious but it illustrates that these things aren't foolproof)

Phil

[NCPaul]

I suppose that I take a simple veiw of these things; when I imgine a cure at full equilibrium, I think that the ionic strength between the meat (at ~ 80 % water) and the brine is equal. Leveling the difference in the ion concentration is what creates the "% pickup". Perhaps this view is what led me to this excellent forum and this experiment. I agree that the calculations given by the FDA can lead to "odd" results. I think the ratio of the meat to the meat +brine should be a part of method 2 (perhaps with a water compensation factor). For method 1, I think, this equaliziation of ionic strength is interupted, (hopefully based on someone's data), from a weight v. time correlation. I would suggest that we consider the proposed cure experiment from this viewpoint. I look forward to posting the data on Monday.

[wheels]

NCPaul

I wonder whether one of our problems is that we calculate small amounts of cures for small amounts of meat whereas these rules are made for people who don't put 1kg in 500ml; they put 1 ton in 100's of gallons.

(Not that I'm trying to start a discussion about more than one piece of meat in a method 2 brine - otherwise we could be here for weeks! )

Phil

[Oddley]

I have got to agree, with the meat being approx 80% water, I tend to envision the meat and brine as one entity, with chemicals moving too and fro in little ripples until a balance is reached.

I think at the end of the day this is all joined up and it is we who don't understand it all and have fragmented it.

Also, have too agree, there are some anomalies with the formulas.

[wheels]

Thanks Oddley.

[NCPaul]

Wheels- When are you coming to the US to tell the FDA that their calculation for Method 2 is wrong?

< Calculation Formula (using the green weight and pickle weight)
lb nitrite × 1,000,000 = ppm
green weight (lb) meat block + lb pickle

Should be

< Calculation Formula (using the green weight and pickle weight)
green weight (lb) meat block x 0.8 x lb nitrite × 1,000,000 = ppm
green weight (lb) meat block + lb pickle

I put the 0.8 in the compensate for the amount of water in the meat block.

For multiple meats, one would weigh each one and calculate. If they are all of a similar weight, they could all be cured safely; if they are much different in weight, one would either be under cured or over cured depending on the lb nitrite, as you would imagine. As your example upthread shows, the calculation can easily break down to give nonsense results. The calculation is wrong. You have tormented yourself over this long enough. The calulation above is the correct one to use.