FDA Processors calcs.Is method one viable for home curers.

[Oddley]

I think I must have missed something..

Using the original recipe:

Recipe Used

1200 g meat
600 g brine

brine:
16 g cure #1
45 g salt
30 g sugar
509 g water
spices

green weight (lb) meat block x 0.8 x lb nitrite x 1,000,000
------------------------------------------------------------------------ = ppm
green weight (lb) meat block + lb pickle

I have changed the above, so I and anybody in the EU may understand the formula a little better.

green weight (g) meat block x % water in meat x g nitrite x 1,000,000
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- = ppm
green weight (g) meat block + g pickle * 100

1200 x 80 x 1 x 1,000,000
------------------------------------ = 533333 ppm
1200 + 600 * 100

As you can see 533333 ppm , now if you divide that figure by 1000 it makes some sort of sense, but I cannot find any logic for me to divide it by 1000. Still thinking about it..

It seems relevant at this point to introduce the following from the FDA:

Fat tissue commonly contains 5-8% water;

Water
Water is by far the largest component of meat, comprising 65-80% of the lean tissue. The water present in muscle functions as a solvent for the transportation of metabolites and as a medium in which reactions occur. In meat, water provides juiciness, color, and also acts as a solute.
Generally, the water content of meat is about 3.5 to 3.7 times the amount of protein. Fat tissue commonly contains 5-8% water; thus, meat with higher fat content will have less protein and water. Water plays a significant role in processed meats because additional water is added to emulsion-type products and to cured whole muscle meats through the use of curing brines. Obviously, water loss lowers processing yield, which generally is not desirable in cooked meats but is desired in fermented and other dried meats. The manipulation of water content in processed meat is critical to the successful production of the entire range of processed meats.
Water exists in meat as
1. bound (restricted or immobilized) water, and
2. free or bulk water.
One type of bound water, often called restricted or immobilized water, is attracted to the protein, forming loosely ordered associations. For example, when salt is added to meat, it increases the amount of restricted water due to its effect on the meat proteins; thus, “binding” of the water occurs. Another type of bound water is the water structurally associated with meat proteins, membranes and connective tissue. This bound water can only be removed by very high heat such as when meat is ashed (3-5% of total water). Bound water is not available for microbial activities.

[wheels]

I must be particulary dim today as I don't understand the oint that NCPaul is making.

Oddley's, recalculation (correction) of mine is correct according to the inspectors handbook - I used the correct formula as well - just with the wrong figures that I picked up from another spreadsheet I was doing at the time.

NCPaul, every reference I can find to the green weght of meat is to the original weight of the meat as used by both Oddley and myself. Do you have any information/documentation that leads you to believe that the FDA interpreted it any differently?

Phil

[NCPaul]

I apologize for my typo , I should have some coffee before posting. My point is this:

meat x 0.8 X conc = ppm
meat + brine

so the calculation becomes

meat x 0.8 X lb nitrate x 1,000,000 = ppm
meat + brine meat + brine

At full equilibrium, the meat and the brine must have the same sum total concentration of salts as the initial brine. They are distributed in proportion to their weight.

[wheels]

Stick with me here NCPaul, but other than introducing a reduction in the meat weight for water - which the FDA don't - you've just posted the formula that Oddley and I used.

Is the fact that you think that the FDA should have allowed for the water in the meat your point?

Phil

(edited for spelling errors)

[NCPaul]

I see that now. I'm getting dumber the more I think about this.


I got tangled up in the math of subtracting the weight of meat that wasn't unbound water to calculate the cure. My thinking was that since the meat to brine ratio was two to one, that this would have a big influence on the calculation.

[wheels]

Join the club!

...and just looking at the thread title, it asks whether method 1 is viable for home curers?

I say it is as long as you use a large (ish) piece of meat. That's what the FDA say, they have the scientists (presumably) who have produced evidence of this.

The fact is that they say method 1 is for large pieces of meat and method 2 for small pieces with a large surface area. I read that as meaning that if a piece is large it is cured to method 1, if it is small but has a small surface area (unlikely I know) it would still be method 1, not 2.

Method Two is primarily used with small items with large surface areas such as pigs' ears, tails, snouts, etc.

(OK, I'm playing devil's advocate - but that is what it says - who are we to argue?)

Phil

[Oddley]

I'll argue with them. What I say is at some point in time, there will be a equalization with the brine and the meat. For arguments sake, a week, a month, a year, whatever. Therefore method 2 is applicable with time constraints.

We are all making this too difficult, for a rough estimate, just use your sense of taste. If you have calculated a cure by method 2 and worked the time out by 8-9 days a Kg, or 11 days per inch of thickness, after the requisite time in cure, if it is too salty, or not salty enough, then obviously the calculation is not correct.

I believe the absorption rates for different chemicals are equal. So no problem.

[wheels]

I couldn't agree more.

There is a big difference in all levels between the two methods so it should be apparent by the saltiness as to whether it has turned out as predicted.

That said there is probably a level of cure/time in cure where both results meet. Determine this and we would be 'safe' whichever system we use.

Given the low levels of nitrite/nitrate that we use nowadays I don't think we've much to worry about.

Phil

[Oddley]

It's funny you know. Potassium nitrAte definitely gives a superior cure. I made some petit sale a while ago, and it was the best bacon I have eaten, bar none. This was made with saltpetre, at 700 ppm and various other ingredients. The salt level was a whacking 10%, I had to soak it for 24 hours. I don't say this lightly but it was as near perfect as I've tasted.

Just thought I'd lighten the mood, with a tale of good food.

[wheels]

I took your advice on this a while back Oddley and use cure #1 and/or saltpetre depending on how much of hurry I'm in. Another advantage is that it gives individual control over the levels of each chemical when using both.

Phil

[wheels]

I have split Jane's response into a separate thread.

As she says (in a post) it is about how to calculate the cure, rather than which method should be used.

I hope you will all appreciate that trying to do a beginners explanation of the way of doing the mathematical calculations of method 2 interspersed with a discussion about the relative curing methods is likely to lead to confusion, or will be at the least messy!

The new thread is here:

http://forum.sausagemaking.org/viewtopic.php?t=5812

Phil

[wheels]

I'd like to return to this subject, with your indulgence. I have no argument with method 2 for small pieces of meat with large surface areas, large pieces of meat cured to an absolute equilibrium, or Oddleys method of combining a calculation by this method then applying experience and using size and weight of the meat, along with taste, to judge. I can also understand a certain logic in saying, for example, that if a piece of meat is half-way to equilibrium it will have half of the salt/sugar/cure levels that it will when it gets there.

However, the original question posted by Jim is whether Method 1 is suitable for home curers, which is slightly different to asking whether method 2 works. Method 1 being the system based on the theory that the meat will only naturally pick up 8 - 10% of it's own weight in cure, and therefore will have only the salt/sugar/cure in that 10% amount in it.

I make no apology for reiterating that the FDA agree with me - they say quite clearly that for larger pieces of meat you should use this method.

Why am I so persistent in suggesting this? Well from my experience with cures I have done in the past, that's why. Some of you will not be aware that not so long ago we thought that calculating brine immersion cures using this method (method 1) was the 'best thing since sliced bread'! We used cures calculated by this method and got results commensurate with our calculations. What I have done is to revisit one of these cures that I made and recalculated it as if we had known then what we believe we know now; with surprising results.

The cure was coincidentally one of Oddley's and was one of the first salt beef cures I tried, as with all of Oddley's recipes it was very good. For brevity I won't list all the spices as I am not posting it for people to use, just to illustrate a point:

It called for:

Water 3000gm
Salt 792gm
Sugar 430gm
Saltpetre 8.61gm
Cure #1 73.17gm

This was for 1760gm meat (I used 2000gm - the weight of meat is not of major significance with method 1 calculations)

We used to calculate these at 10% pick-up to err on the side of caution.

This cure calculated to method 1 gives:
Nitrite 100PPM
Nitrate 200PPM
Salt 2%
Sugar 1%

It was cured for 10 days per kg, which is, if the information we have now is correct, to equilibrium.

Granted at 2% salt it was soaked for 24 hours and the resulting saltiness was similar to what I expect from my low salt ham which has 1% salt content. No-one expressed surprise at the outcome of this cure; everything was as we expected it to be.

Now, moving on a few years, we are told we got it all wrong, we should have calculated this 'cure to equilibrium' by using method 2. If we do it gives:
Nitrite 710PPM
Nitrate 1420PPM
Salt 14.2%
Sugar 7.1%

...or thereabouts.

I am sorry, but even after 24 hours soaking, I do not believe that a level of 14% salt will be reduced that much that it tastes as if it only has about 1% in it.

I am sure that which method to use, and the time to reach equilibrium is related more to the ratio of 'weight to surface area' than just weight alone.

Phil

[Oddley]

When I was calculating the cures by method 1, I had a few complaints that peoples meat was too salty if they left it in the brine too long. Even then, I could not understand why.

I then found out about dissipation, and this knowledge gave me the answer to the reasons for too salty meat, by meat cured by method 1. I think I have given all the reasons for the belief that there is an exchange of ingredients ie: simply, salt and water soluble elements in water out. Of course it's far more complex than that.

This forum is now so big I can't find the complaints, or an experiment, where I weighed up a piece of meat, then brine cured it, then weighed it again, only to find out it lost 2% in weight.

As you know, my mind is always open to new evidence. But until it turns up, I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

[wheels]

Oddley

Given that this cure was used regularly and designed for curing to equilibrium (at 14% salt if method 2 is used), did it ever taste anything like that salty to you?

Most people would find that totally inedible by a long shot even after a days soaking.

If anyone doubts this do a simple test - mix salt into mashed potato at 14gm salt per 100gm potato and try it, or allow for the soaking and use a bit less. Yes, that's over 2 teaspoons of salt in under ½ Cup of potato. Yuk!

I guess you're right, we'll have to agree to disagree. Pity that as I would love to hear your thoughts on whether the shape of meat (and therefore surface area) affects the time taken to reach equilibrium. I think it does and would use the difference in time that 3 kg of flat belly takes to cure, as opposed to a 3kg rolled leg, to support this.

Thanks for discussing this with me.

Phil

[wheels]

If anyone has a Science Direct account there is a paper titled the "Mathematical modeling of the uptake of curing salts in pork meat" here:

Link to paper

Phil