FDA Processors calcs.Is method one viable for home curers.

[Oddley]

If I were to use the method 1, as you posted. I would use the 11 days per inch on rolled meats, or thick pieces, then the time would be 1/10th of the equilibrium time. With method 1, if you substitute concentration for pickup, then you can within reason choose the time to cure.

Given that this cure was used regularly and designed for curing to equilibrium (at 14% salt if method 2 is used), did it ever taste anything like that salty to you?

Some did complain to me about saltiness.

I certainly do think that the surface area has an effect on the curing time. A 2 Kg belly will reach equalization a lot quicker than a strung and rolled 2 Kg belly.

On the rolled belly, I would use the 8-9 days per Kg of meat or the 11 Days per inch, on the flat belly, I would use 2-3 days per inch. I would leave both in the fridge after cure for a few days, for everything to equalize.

[captain wassname]

The reason I started was about the method of calculating cures not metods of curing.
Ive read the evidence that Oddley post re equillibrium and am in agreement with his conclusions if we can assume that the road to equillibrium is a straight line
However I cant agree that calculation by method 1 are the same as calculations by what he was proposing.
A simple rework of Oddleys conclusion.
1000 gms of meat cured to equillibrium to contain 0.16 gms(cos its halfway) nitrite 20 gms salt and 10 gms sugar.(cos I said so)
To be immersed in 1 kilo brine which would contain 40gms salt 20 gms sugar and .32 gms nitrite
for a more or less solid piece of fatless skinless pork equillibrium will be reached 1 9 days.
If we want a curing time of 3 days then our 1 kilo of brine would contain 120 gms salt 60 gms sugar and .92 gms nitrite.
This is nowhere method 2 calcs.No mention of % pickk up but mention of time.
Its not my contention that we are curing in an unsafe way but given a knowledge of curing times we could maybe calculate cures in a more easily understood manner.

What about chapter 11

Jim

[wheels]

Thank you both,

I'm hoping that someone will have acces to the scientific paper I posted about earlier.

It's late so I'll try to answer you Jim tomorrow.

However, chapter 11 seems to be " where angels fear to tread!"

Phil

[captain wassname]

Phil My post especiallythe bit about chapter 11 wasnt addressed specificaly to you

Jim

[wheels]

Jim

Don't worry, I guessed that.

I think that we are all aware that this is a somewhat 'polarising subject'. None of us want to offend each other, but expressing what would be simple in a face to face discussion is often very difficult when it all has to be written down.

You will be aware that we have had complex discussions before about similar subjects - I can assure you that two of the major protagonists (if you can have two?) are still the best of mates - I was one, I trust and have no reason to doubt that the same will be true here.

Phil

(I was tempted to add a question-mark at the end of the last sentence though! )

[Oddley]

It seems to me, scanning chapter 11, the FDA expect the weight gain to occur at the beginning of the cure, so they can weigh and calculate the weight gain.

Because pumped brine or artificially introduced brine, has nowhere else to go, it will all stay in the meat therefore, all the ingredients can be calculated as ingoing. With an immersed cure, it can equalize.

Nitrite * % Pump * 1000000
-------------------------------------- = ppm
100 * Weight of Brine

By simply adding the meat weight, too give a equalization cure, Then change the % pump for the % of 100% equalization (% Equalization)

Nitrite * % Equalization * 1000000
--------------------------------------------- = ppm
100 * Weight of Brine + Meat weight

0.92 * 33.33 * 1000000
---------------------------------- = 153.3
100 * 1000 + 1000

We can check this formula, by simply using the FDA method 2, as we have made it 3 times the concentration, to cure in 3 days

gram nitrite × 1,000,000
------------------------------------------------------------ = ppm
green weight (gram) meat block + gram pickle

0.92 × 1,000,000
---------------------- = 460 ppm
1000 + 1000

If we take the 460 and divide it by 33.33 %, of the 100% of the time it takes to reach equalization then we get.

460 x 33.33
--------------- = final ppm after 3 days = 151.318
100

Ok, lets take NCPaul's example, to see if it still makes sense.

Recipe Used

1200 g meat
600 g brine

brine:
16 g cure #1 (at 6.25 % nitrite)
45 g salt
30 g sugar
509 g water
spices

Using method 1, with added meat. lets say this is twice the amount of nitrite, so we want it to be cured in half the time.

Using 9 days a Kg meat the equalization time is 10.8 days lets call it 12 days for ease.

:.
Nitrite * % Equalization * 1000000
--------------------------------------------- = ppm
100 * Weight of Brine + Meat weight

1 * 50 * 1000000
----------------------------- = 278 ppm
100 * 1200 + 600

ppm meat = 1.2 x 278 = 334
ppm brine = 0.6 x 278 = 167

So you will have approx 334 mg in your 1.2 Kg meat in 6 days, this is of course 278 mg/Kg nitrite.

I hope, I have proved that the formulas are almost exactly the same,The methods being dissimilar, only in the fact that the FDA expect the pickup/pump at the beginning of the cure, so verification can be done by weight.

[captain wassname]

Phil No worries (persistant pair of bastards aint we?)
Ive learnt something that I allready suspected .According to OSU a cured ham will have a shelf life of 30 days.under refridgeration.

Jim

[Oddley]

Ok, lets take NCPaul's example, to see if it still makes sense.
wrote:
Recipe Used

1200 g meat
600 g brine

brine:
16 g cure #1 (at 6.25 % nitrite)
45 g salt
30 g sugar
509 g water
spices

Using method 1, with added meat. lets say this is twice the amount of nitrite, so we want it to be cured in half the time.

Using 9 days a Kg meat the equalization time is 10.8 days lets call it 12 days for ease.

:.
Nitrite * % Equalization * 1000000
--------------------------------------------- = ppm
100 * Weight of Brine + Meat weight

1 * 50 * 1000000
----------------------------- = 278 ppm
100 * 1200 + 600

ppm meat = 1.2 x 278 = 334
ppm brine = 0.6 x 278 = 167

So you will have approx 334 mg in your 1.2 Kg meat in 6 days, this is of course 278 mg/Kg nitrite.

I hope, I have proved that the formulas are almost exactly the same,The methods being dissimilar, only in the fact that the FDA expect the pickup/pump at the beginning of the cure, so verification can be done by weight.

It was pointed out to me, that there was 1 g nitrite in the mix and 1 only accounted for 501 mg (this should have been 500 mg the error comes from rounding up). Logic dictates this would be 50% of the equalization of nitrite, in the meat, 334 mg nitrite.

It is also logic, if you have the full amount in the brine at the start and give the meat 50% of the time to equalization, the rest of the nitrite will remain in the brine. Thanks for pointing out my error. I hope this clears it up.

[wheels]

I'm laid up in bed so can't access much info, but is no account made for the fact that nitrite reacts/works more in the initial stages of curing?

Phil

[captain wassname]

Hi Phil
Hope you not too bad.
I wouldnt think it makes any difference I think the important thing is the rate that it is picked up. If it were a nitrate cure that was engineered to take (say) 6 days You would have the appropiate level of Nitrate but it wouldnt have started to work hardly at all and would need a couple of weeks before curing was complete even a nitrite cure would probably benifit from a little standing time.
Hope this makes sense It just seemed logical rather than scientific.

Jim.

[Oddley]

Phil, I hope you are feeling better soon.

[Ianinfrance]

I'm laid up in bed Phil

You poor chap - unless it's with an attractive companion, in which case I'd call you a lucky dog and tell you not to brag!!

Seriously, hope you get better soon.

All the best

Ian

[wheels]

Many thanks for your kind words, it's phsical (pressure sore)rather than an illness so it's not too bad.
I've nicked my daughter's laptop for a while but find it very difficult to use.
Phil

[captain wassname]

Hi Phil
Good to hear from you Hope your up and about soon.
Jim

[NCPaul]

The experiment is underway. People who will wait weeks for a salami or months for a ham, are by nature patient. Above should be the image of a pork loin in the brine; the small bowl is used to keep the meat submerged. The charges (per procedure given by Oddley) were:

Meat 1199.82g
Water 509.09g
Salt 45.02g
Pink salt 16.00g
Sugar 30.00g

8 juniper berries 1.06g
fennugreek seed 0.25g
16 peppercorns 0.83g
1 bay leaf 0.22g

Samples taken were 2 g each and results were run in duplicate. t=0 was taken from the brine before the meat was added. Results are expressed in % NaCl and time is in hours. The data:

Water (city) 0.0016

t=0 10.57
t=12 8.32
t=24 7.74
t=48 6.95

Tommorow I hope to have another day and the % NaCl of the meat. Don't tell the OH what I used the blender for. The next data should come Friday and Wednesday of next week.

Hope you are feeling better Phil.