use of saltpetre

[op9980]

Hiya

I was wondering if you could help - i am trying to make some bresaola, but i'm having difficulty getting saltpetre. The stuff you sell online is a potassium nitrate. I know that nitrates are not used for curing - its normally nitrites. can you tell me if this is wrong, or if it is a mistake on the products page?

thanks

Good website by the way!

OP

[Oddley]

Welcome to the forum op9980

This is franco's recipe for bresaola. Cure #2 can be bought from Franco at:

http://www.sausagemaking.org

Cure #2 is a mixture of sodium Nitrite and sodium Nitrate with salt as a filler.

3kg sirloin or topside

70 grammes sea salt
60 grammes sugar
10 grammes cure 2 (I sell this on my site)
8 grammes ground black pepper
4 grammes dried garlic
5 grammes mixed Italian herbs, rosemary, oregano etc..
10 juniper berries,crushed

1.Mix all the dry ingredients together.

2.Divide the mixture in 2

3.Rub half of the mixture into the beef making sure it penetrates all flaps etc.

4.Leave the beef for seven days sealed in a Ziploc bag or under vacuum.
5.After 7 days pour off any excess liquid and rub the second portion of the spice mix into the meat and reseal.

6.Leave for another 2 weeks in the bag and after that rinse the meat.

7.Put the meat into elastic netting and air dry for 6 hours in a warm room.

8. Hang the meat to mature for a minimum of 3 weeks.

[op9980]

thanks,

but that doesn't actually answer my question at all. I already have a recipe, but i wanted to know whether the potassium nitrate that is sold on the website is the stuff you are supposed to use for curing meat.

I think nitrites are supposed to be used , as nitrAtes poison the meat, however, nitrAtes are sold on the website. Is this a mistake?

OP[/u]

[Spuddy]

Potassium Nitrate IS saltpeter, Potassium Nitrite is most definitely NOT saltpeter.
If your recipe calls for saltpeter then you should use Potassium Nitrate. (assuming your recipe source is a reliable one).
Potassium Nitrate does NOT poison the meat. In fact the nitrate is converted to nitrite over time by the action of certain bacteria. This in effect makes it more of a "slow release" cure which is why it is most often used in air dried products like salami and prosciutto type hams.

Saltpeter can poison YOU if you use excessive amounts (and the same can be said for ALL cures), which is why I suggest you make sure the recipe is reliable first.

If you want to post the recipe here then I'm sure one of us will check it for safety for you.

Hope this helps.

[Epicurohn]

I thought Saltpetre was banned for meat curing. Or is this only in the U.S?

[sausagemaker]

Epicurohn

Might be in the US but can certainly be used here in the UK

Regards
Sausagemaker

[DarrellS]

Hi,

You can still buy salt petre here in the states. I know the ingredientstore.com carries it.

regards

[Spuddy]

It may be banned in commercially produced products. If it is available to buy (and the purity is good) then there's nothing wrong with you using it in your home cures.

[Bad Flynch]

In the U.S. the following synonyms apply:

Saltpetre is Potassium Nitrate
Chilean Saltpetre is Sodium Nitrate

In point of fact, the active moiety is the nitrate, so they are interchangeable as long as equimolar amounts are used, nitrate for nitrate.

There are still a few old recipes around that use nitrate, including Smithfield Hams, I believe. The cnversion to nitrite is done slowly by natural bacterial reduction, thence to nitric oxide. Rytek Kutas' book deals with this adequately. It is available from The Sausagemaker www.thesausagemaker.com .

[Oddley]

The below, was from Franco's supplier. I have not been able to discover how this works, even with the knowledge of the difference in molecular weights, between Potassium Nitrate and Sodium nitrate. This only accounts for about 15% of the difference.

Sodium Nitrate (Chile Saltpetre) is more concentrated than potassium nitrate (Saltpetre). You need to use sodium nitrate at 53.2% of the level of potassium nitrate in your formulation. For example if you used 100g of potassium nitrate, you need to replace that with 53.2g of sodium nitrate. Add the extra 46.8g to the quantity of salt that you are using.

molecular weights of nitrates nitrites

To understand this you need to know your chemistry.
If you look at the chemical formulas you may get a small clue:

Potassium Nitrate = KNO3 (molecular weight = 101.1)
Potassium Nitrite = KNO2 (molecular weight = 85.1)
Sodium Nitrate = NaNO3 (molecular weight = 84.99)
Sodium Nitrite = NaNO2 (molecular weight = 68.99)

Because the molecular weight of say Potassium Nitrate is higher than Sodium Nitrate that means that 1g of Sodium Nitrate contains more NO3 (nitrate) than Potassium Nitrate. This is because one Potassium atom weighs more than one Sodium atom.

[Bad Flynch]

The below, was from Franco's supplier. I have not been able to discover how this works, even with the knowledge of the difference in molecular weights, between Potassium Nitrate and Sodium nitrate. This only accounts for about 15% of the difference.

I have no idea, either. The 15%/85% difference in the molecular weights should be adequate and accurate for calculations, unless we are missing something like water of hydration differences. Then, there will be a difference added that accounts for the difference in water content of the crystals. One of the problems with Sodium Nitrate is that it is more deliquescent than the Potassium salt and its use, therefore, in making gunpowder was considered second best. Gunpowder made with Potassium Nitrate is called Black Powder and gunpowder made with Sodium Nitrate is called Brown Powder.

Look up the water of hydration needed to make the crystals as that is likely the difference.

[Bad Flynch]

I looked up the water of hydration differences, and it is not a factor in the calculation, apparently.

My edition of Rytek Kutas' book cites the USFDA proposed difference between the Sodium and Potassium salts as 83.3 percent, which would agree with the calculation based on raw molecular weight.

I have no idea why that other source quotes the difference as much greater, maybe some other person does. Perhaps it is simply a calculation error that has been perpetuated without checking.

[Spuddy]

This has been confounding Oddley and myself for some time (and I have an HNC in a Chemistry related subject!!).
Bad Flynch, Your comment about gunpowder made me think that there is a possibilty that the differences may also be down to the strength of the bond of the molecule but I need to let the wine wear off and think about it a bit more.

[Epicurohn]

Hey Spuddy,

Did the wine finally wear off. You got us chemistry amateurs waiting to uncover the mistery.

I read somewhere that the USDA's decision to stay away from saltpetre was since the active curing ingredient is nitric oxide which is reduced from potasium nitrite; it would take a couple of days for the chemical reactions to take place and beggin curing the meat. In this time lapse some spoilage could take place (botulism).

Thanks,

David

[Oddley]

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that Franco's supplier is just plain wrong. Everybody makes mistakes me more than anybody.

I think it is just one of those occasions. I have asked Franco in a Pm to ask his supplier a question. but never received an answer. I think the answer lies between nearly 16% and 20%.

If I need to use a combination cure to get over the problem of Nitrate reduction, I like to make my own from cure #1 and potassium Nitrate(Saltpetre) This give more control than the fixed rate cure #2.