dried herbs in cured sausages

[mrphilips]

cool man. in these parts, i'm known amongst myself as an accomplished curry fiend, so i know all about the aromatizing effect of toasted spices, cummin especially - and the little dance corriander gives you as it starts to heat up.

i may not drop the asafetida (devil's dung) in a pork sausage, but i'm exciting to take this a jaunt or two out of the mediteranian...

[Ianinfrance]

...Or use them with the self-assured knowledge that you increase the risk of botulism.

Personally, I'll balance my self-assured knowledge that I increase the risk of botulism with my self-assured knowledge that I am adding sodium nitrite (the most powerfully-toxic substance known to man, and can take your head clean off) in sufficient concentration for my sausages to be safe from botulism poisoning.

Grin. That's my view too, though perhaps you should have made the wink AFTER your tongue in cheek remark over the toxicity of Nitrite.

[vagreys]

I haven't figured out how to post that in Clint Eastwood's voice, yet...

[mrphilips]

hey, if we haven't covered this already (in fine enough detail)...
what if i boiled fresh (or dried) herbs in water for 5min... then pour into a jar, seal, and allow to cool. then strain the flavoured water into the sausage meat...

i'm trying but i can't see how this is LESS sterile than my store-bought paprika, black pepper, cellared garlic, etc...

[grisell]

Botulinum spores survive up to 120 C/250 F, so you can boil your herbs for days and it won't make any difference at all in that respect.

Dried commercial herbs are either processed under impeccable hygiene conditions (hopefully! ) or irradiated with gamma rays that kill everything in a matter of seconds. Even so, dried herbs are not marketed with the approval or purpose of being used in cured sausages, which is why the industry uses extracts. Anything you add to your salami poses an increased risk. It's just a matter of how much, as I said before.

[mrphilips]

i know that a well sealed mason jar taped to a heavey plate (to keep it submerged) can be boiled in heavily salted water in a pressure cooker, which allows the water to boil at higher than 100 - not 100% sure about 120, but i know it can get to 115...

...but that's a lot of trouble for the flavour...

how about botchy's response to alcohol? would vodka kill it? infused vodka could carry the fresh herb flavour if so...

[grisell]

[---]

how about botchy's response to alcohol? would vodka kill it? infused vodka could carry the fresh herb flavour if so...

I don't know. I guess it requires some research. Anyway, vodka is only 40% alcohol and not all aromas are soluble in alcohol, whereas others are very soluble. This would skew the balance between the constituting components. Compare eating some fresh wormwood or chili with eating some infused in alcohol and you will see.

But why go through all this for the purpose of using fresh herbs? There are commercially dried herbs and extracts. Save the fresh ones for ordinary cooking.

[mrphilips]

no, vodka is a great liquid to infuse with essential oils, very accepting. also, as it has little flavour of it's own (in comparison to other alcoholic drinks) and as it will evaporate down when added to food, it will not leave things overly liquidy. that much i know.
just not sure if 40% alcohol is enough to kill the botulinum.

but in response to what you just said, i'm not overly concerned with fresh herbs - i'm just trying to use herbs in cured sausages, and from what i gathered in your previous posts, you suggest the increased risk is not worth it... even in the dried herbs! so i was looking for alternate methods.

i just want to add thyme and rosemary like i want to add chili and garlic and pepper and paprika...
i don't see extracted herb oils here a lot... they have a few in the health food stores, but i have no idea if they are "safer" in terms of botulinum... in fact, nothing i buy mentions "botulism-free" so i'm not sure how any consumer knows how any of this stuff was handled.

seriously, they way i've see some of these spices (black pepper, cummin, fennel) being packaged and re-sold and shipped from abroad, i doubt they're any safer than anything that comes out of my garden, but we do what we can to keep things safe.... though i think we're making some vast assumptions on the whole spices.

[mrphilips]

from wikipedia: "Ethanol kills organisms by denaturing their proteins and dissolving their lipids and is effective against most bacteria and fungi, and many viruses, but is ineffective against bacterial spores"

[grisell]

from wikipedia: "Ethanol kills organisms by denaturing their proteins and dissolving their lipids and is effective against most bacteria and fungi, and many viruses, but is ineffective against bacterial spores"

Well, I guess that was that, then. I use commercially dried spices and fresh garlic in my salamis. Everything is a compromise and it's up to everyone to set their own level of acceptance here. It is an interesting subject though. I'd like to know more about what methods are used industrially to eliminate botulism risk. In salami production, I mean.