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Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:36 pm**

I'm glad you decided to post the recipe and method, as it allowed me to analyse the recipe. What I think is happening is, as you are freezing the kebab meat the unbound water contracts causing micro fissures, then as the log is heated and some unbound water expands it is forcing these micro fissures open.

The cure is to bind all the water. The easiest way of doing this is to add some tri-phosphate to your mix, this should bind any unbound water solving the problem.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:24 pm**

On further reflection tri-phosphate might have an effect on the texture of the forcemeat. So perhaps it might be better to start with other methods of binding any unbound water first.

You have not given an exact amount of salt. Salt helps in binding water by developing soluble proteins in the meat when mixing. In the UK about 1.3% of salt is used in commercial sausage mixes. This means that in your recipe that would be about 67g of salt. To start with add the salt and water to your meat whilst mixing and allow a good amount of time for the proteins to develop then add any spices and mix lastly add the rusk when finished mixing allow to stand for about 15 minutes for the rusk to fully re-hydrate. By this method you are allowing the proteins to bind as much water as possible then allowing the rusk to take the excess.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:59 pm**

I have just noticed that you are using the same amount of water as rusk. Normally rusk is used at a rate of 1 part rusk to 1.5 parts water. Therefore my above posts will only apply if your forcemeat mix is a nice slightly sticky/wet mixture after mixing.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:17 pm**

Well, part of the problem may be American Lamb. American raised lamb is often stronly flavored and I do not like it. Most of my friends of British extraction and I insist on New Zeland lamb.

Posted: **Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:10 pm**

Whist Oddley has covered most of the problem areas (low salt low water & no phosphate). there is still one area in the method that needs urgent attention.
You have stated that you are mincing frozen meat, you need to mince tempered meat otherwise the the fibres will be unable to bind back together & form a coherent mass, Frozen meat will also give you extra water that is unbound & therefore will release on cooking.

Regards
Sausagemaker

Posted: **Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:36 pm**

sausagemaker wrote:Whist Oddley has covered most of the problem areas (low salt low water & no phosphate). there is still one area in the method that needs urgent attention.
You have stated that you are mincing frozen meat, you need to mince tempered meat otherwise the the fibres will be unable to bind back together & form a coherent mass, Frozen meat will also give you extra water that is unbound & therefore will release on cooking.

Regards
Sausagemaker

Can you explain tempered meat to me? thanks,

Dave

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:32 am**

Thanks Oddley for your help, not knowing much about Tri phosphates maybe you can give me more details on this product, where would you normally buy this if i were in the UK and what exactly would i ask for in the shop, this will help me find this product in Thailand. Thanks.
If your advice works there's a 2 weeks free accommodation waiting for you in the Barracuda Bar Pattaya Thailand and im not joking, thats if the wife would let you go, not much chance if you are married. check out our website www.barracudabar-pattaya.com
Ill keep in touch and let you know if it works

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:38 am**

Thanks for the offer barracuda, but my old woman would kill me!

I only know one place to get phospate in the UK and thats HERE. ie: Supaphos

Posted: **Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm**

Hi Dave

Tempered meats are frozen meat defrosted to minus 1 or 2 before mincing.
The reason for this is if you think of the meat fibres laying in a line & then freeze then the when you mince them they would just be chopped at regular intervals.
However if they are tempered then the blade of the mincer allows the meat to bend for use of a better word & therefore can reform with some structure.
A good way to see this in action is if you go & buy some fresh mince & some frozen mince the dry fry them in a pan you will see the frozen mince will be sawdust like in cooking & the fresh meat will clump together.
It is this clumping you need to help with the bind.
As Oddley stated the use of phosphate will help in the bind but this works by moving the PH of the meat to allow water to be easily bound, but again if the meat is frozen there is nothing to bind because you have broken the structure.

Hope this helps

Best regards
Sausagemaker

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:08 pm**

Thanks for the explanation sausagemaker. It is definitely something to keep in mind.

I made the recipe posted by Barracuda, and there are definitely a few small problems with it. The first is, there is in my opinion a little to much cumin, especially if you are cooking it soon after making it. Next time I make this recipe I will use half the amount of cumin, as there is in Barracuda's recipe. The second problem is, that with the large amount of breadcrumb/rusk, the meat texture is way to soft. I think this was the problem that Barracuda was talking about. I believe this can be easily remedied with about 0.8% phosphate. I will be adding that in my next try.

Having said all that, the recipe is very close to that of a donner kebab, in a kebab shop, as testified too, by two of my daughters who sometimes have them. Apart from the above problems, I also enjoyed the kebab. I have reposted below, Barracuda's recipe, that I used last night, plus, I developed a chili sauce to go with it, that seemed to please those that tried it.

Donner Kebab

38.913 % - 716 g Breast of Lamb
38.913 % - 716 g Chuck steak
9.7283 % - 179 g Breadcrumb
9.7283 % - 179 g Water
0.1087 % - 2 g Cumin powder
0.1087 % - 2 g Coriander powder
0.0815 % - 1.5 g ground black pepper
0.0272 % - 0.5 g Chili powder
1.1141 % - 20 g butter or margarine
1.3315 % - 24 g salt

My Note: Use half the amount of cumin seed powder + 0.8% phosphate.

Total Weight = 1840 g / 3159 calories

Method:

Mince cold meats through a 4.5mm mincer plate. Place meat and everything else except the breadcrumbs in Kenwood mixer, with K beater attached. Mix on speed 1, for about 10 minutes. Now add the breadcrumbs and mix for a further 2 minutes. Turn off mixer and leave to rehydrate the breadcrumbs for 10-15 minutes in the fridge. Pack into a 2lb bread tin and cook in the centre of an oven for about 1 ï¿½ hours at gas mark 4, 177ï¿½ C, 350 ï¿½ F or until the internal temperature reaches 74ï¿½ C. Slice lengthways thinly. Serve in a kebab bread with salad, chili sauce and a wedge of lemon.

Cilli Sauce

12 large green chilis
1 Red bell pepper
1 Small onion
3 small fresh tomato's
3 Large cloves garlic
1 Tbl tomato puree
2 Tbl Olive oil
1 Tbl white wine vinegar
3 tsp Sugar
1 tsp Salt
440 ml hot water

Cilli Sauce method:

In a pot fry in olive oil, chopped onions, chilis, red pepper and roughly chopped garlic. When softened add tomatoes and soften. Now add white wine vinegar tomato puree, salt and sugar, reduce the vinegar for a minute or two then add the water. Simmer till everything is soft about 20 minutes, then liquidize, I use a stick blender, but you can use a food processor or liquidizer, then work through a sieve with the back of a spoon, to give a nice smooth sauce.

Posted: **Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:24 pm**

Yes, thanks for that, both. I used to love a good'un off the van or the greek takeaway, recreating it would be like turning the clock back 30 years. To my taste buds that is, not my waistline...

Dave

Posted: **Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:47 pm**

sausagemaker, I have been cogitating on your tempering post. May I clarify what you mean. I only ask this because I know you are an expert in this field.

sausagemaker wrote:Tempered meats are frozen meat defrosted to minus 1 or 2 before mincing.

I took your post to mean, that essentially you have to defrost the meat before mincing, because you would be cutting across proteins and essentially destroying their ability to bind water. I hope this is right or I'm going to look like a right donut. But don't let that stop you.

Posted: **Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:21 pm**

Hi Oddley

Yes you have read it correctly, Spot on

Regards
Sausagemaker

Posted: **Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:08 pm**

Thank you sausagemaker. I suppose for all of us it is hard to understand all the threads of the process, without guidance of people like yourself.

Posted: **Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:39 pm**

i made a big loaf of this on saturday for a bbq, excellent recipe. I just doubled the recipe up and packed it all into a big casserole topped with greaseproof paper and cooked it for 90 mins at 170oC in the fan oven.

Went down a treat, chilli sauce was nice but i'd like to make one like in the takeaways, it's a lot redder with more of a tomato taste

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Genuine London Doner kebab recipe?