www.sausagemaking.org

i've seen a recent post regarding fresh herbs in fresh sausages...

i've also noticed that a lot of the recipes for CURED sausages include:
dried spices - ie, seeds
fresh garlic - the only fresh vegetable i've seen suggested
dried/powdered chilis - a vegetable, but dried like an herb

this all seems quite common, but i don't often come across recipes for cured sausages including dried herbs - thyme and rosemary, etc. i have seen it included in lots of cured meats, but rarely within the cured sausage itself...

any of you pros have any suggestions of how to do it and do it right? i'nm interested in making up a few recipes, and don't want to waste my time...

It's a matter of compromise. Fresh herbs add an additional risk of infection. Commercially dried spices are often irradiated or otherwise properly sterilized.

so... you wouldn't do it at all?

what about toasting them quickly in a hot pan...

...also, i find it funny that seeds would be treated differently than leaves. especially considering the history of seeds (peppercorns, fennel, etc) in sausages, it must go beyond the recent technology or radiation, no?

are paprika and red chilis treated the same as the seeds, but thyme etc aren't? and why would the industry take up this processes as it seems excessive for your avergae grocery ingreients...

Grissel, i don't doubt your knowledge - i have followed many of your posts with fantastic results - i just think it seems so weird.

As I said, there are no rules. It's all a matter of compromise. Add some fresh garlic - add a little infection risk, add some fresh chili - add a little more infection risk, add some fresh parsley etc etc...

As for how herbs are treated, I don't know the details. Every source of possible infection that you add to your salami will increase the risk of spoilage. That is why most commercial manufacturers use extracts instead of spices. I've been using fresh garlic but prepared chili in my salamis so far. Garlic is not as susceptible to botulism as chili. Nevertheless, if you use the cure properly and ferment thoroughly before drying, you should be much safer. It's a serious hobby, and every compromise is a compromise on something else.

I'm sorry, I can't give a better answer.

Dried chorizos from Spain often include dried herbs, such as marjoram, thyme, rosemary and oregano. I've always understood the difference in use between fresh and dried to be the moisture content of the succulent, fresh herbs. Dried herbs do not reconstitute to anything resembling their fresh state, carrying only volatile and essential oils that remain after all the moisture has been removed. While commercial dried herbs may be sterilized, I can't imagine that herbs dried at home pose any greater risk.

no, no - your answer is good. tried and true is tried and true for a reason.

i could try the "toasting" of herbs, but i've also had a second thought...
if i'm adding water - like when i add my bacterial culture - i could add the dried herbs to the boiling water, seal it, and allow it to cool - just like i do when i dissolve dextrose into the liquid before adding the cultere. the heat should kill anything present in the herbs, as well as nicely extracting some flavour! i could then add the bacterial culture (once the liquid has cooled, but kept sealed and sterile), and then toss it in the meat like i have done so far in my previous sausages...

anyone? or am i like totally clever!

grisell wrote:...Every source of possible infection that you add to your salami will increase the risk of spoilage. That is why most commercial manufacturers use extracts instead of spices. I've been using fresh garlic but prepared chili in my salamis so far. Garlic is not as susceptible to botulism as chili. Nevertheless, if you use the cure properly and ferment thoroughly before drying, you should be much safer...

This is a very good answer, André. There are a number of reasons that manufacturers use extracts, including shelf life, cost, consistent flavor and reliable potency, compact storage, etc. I think your last sentence is key. Properly dried herbs should not have any viable surface bacteria, and unless they were dried in a kitchen where baking was happening, should have very little airborne yeast. Anything introduced with dried herbs should be overwhelmed by proper cure and fermentation. We have to assume properly dried herbs and spices, just as we assume proper curing and fermentation, or the sausage is at risk as with any other aspect of the sausage made improperly.

vagreys wrote:[---]
While commercial dried herbs may be sterilized, I can't imagine that herbs dried at home pose any greater risk.

No!

I don't agree. "At home" can mean many things. One would not want botulinum spores from herbs in the salami. Botulinum spores are abundant in soil and hence on herbs. There is a very obvious reason why the industry uses extracts in their salamis. My usage of fresh garlic in salami is an increased risk.

In short, don't use fresh or home-dried spices in salamis. Or use them with the self-assured knowledge that you increase the risk of botulism.

We seem to have cross-posted, vagreys.

mrphilips wrote:no, no - your answer is good. tried and true is tried and true for a reason.

i could try the "toasting" of herbs, but i've also had a second thought...
if i'm adding water - like when i add my bacterial culture - i could add the dried herbs to the boiling water, seal it, and allow it to cool - just like i do when i dissolve dextrose into the liquid before adding the cultere. the heat should kill anything present in the herbs, as well as nicely extracting some flavour! i could then add the bacterial culture (once the liquid has cooled, but kept sealed and sterile), and then toss it in the meat like i have done so far in my previous sausages...

anyone? or am i like totally clever!

You don't want to toast the herbs. The only reason for having the herbs is the volatile and essential oils that remain. These oils volatilize at temperatures ranging anywhere from 21-50°C (about 70-120°F). If you toast them, you drive off the essences that you want to go into the meat. This is why herbs dried in a warm/hot dehydrator have almost no flavor. Herbs should be hung to dry in a cool, dry place, away from sunlight, where there is some gentle air circulation.

Some Chicago recipes for kielbasa call for putting crushed whole garlic cloves in hot water to extract flavor, cooling the water, removing the garlic and mincing it, and adding both the minced garlic and the chilled garlic water to the sausage. No reason why you couldn't do the same as you propose with the herbs, if you choose, but I wouldn't add your culture to the herb water. Some of the herbal constituents may be antibacterial, and the herb water too concentrated - could be detrimental to your starter culture, where dispersed throughout the sausage wouldn't pose the same risk. I'd do the herbs and culture separately, if I were taking that route.

If it were me, I'd just finely grind the dried herbs, add them, and not worry.

first off, i wasn't implying drying fresh herbs by toasting or pan-roasting - i more or less just meant giving dried herbs a flash in a hot pan to kill off any bacteria, and yes - there'd be an amount of loss of the essential oils, but some would remain - more if your dried herbs were "freshly dried" - and you coould always double up or use more... but all that for a potentially unhelpful effect anyway. it was just my first thought.

and you're 100% right about the herb water killing off the intentional strain, i had totally not considered that.

yeah, i'm not overly worried really... i figure the often crappy dried spices that end up in my sausages - paprika, etc - are just as likely to be infected as some of the others, but i am no expert or microbiologist. it's just there are SO many flavours to consider out there, and so many great charcuterers on this site who never use herbs! i'm trying to bridge the gap and combine the worlds...

grisell wrote:...Or use them with the self-assured knowledge that you increase the risk of botulism.

Personally, I'll balance my self-assured knowledge that I increase the risk of botulism with my self-assured knowledge that I am adding sodium nitrite (the most powerfully-toxic substance known to man, and can take your head clean off) in sufficient concentration for my sausages to be safe from botulism poisoning.

Got that.

mrphilips wrote:first off, i wasn't implying drying fresh herbs by toasting or pan-roasting - i more or less just meant giving dried herbs a flash in a hot pan to kill off any bacteria...

I understood that. Anything you smell rising from the skillet is flavor and aroma lost, that's all. NOW, having said that, it doesn't apply as much to whole seeds. In fact, if you enjoy experimenting, try pan-toasting whole cumin just until the seeds darken a little, let them cool, and then try that ground, sometime. Gives cumin a very different flavor that I quite enjoy. Same with whole allspice berries. The differences are striking.

Some of the most highly-prized chorizos in Spain are known as much for their marjoram and oregano as they are for their pimentón. Go for it!