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Phospate vs Soy Proteins

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:11 pm
by aussieinor
Hey Guru's,

Wondering if the "powers that be" could provide a pro's & con's for Phosphate vs Soy Protein Isolate vs Soy Protein Concentrate.

I see that some recipes call for Phosphate where others will call for SPI or SPC.

Would appreciate a good breakdown if possible and also for what kind of sausages you would use these in.

Thank you

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:43 pm
by wheels
Can I add powdered milk to that list? They all seem to do the same thing to different degrees?
I use this in wittdog's superb smoked Polish sausage. It cost me �11 and I stand no chance of using it all in the next ten years - I found out afterwards that a bit of milk powder would have done the same thing!
I guess that all the items mentioned are used to 'lock' the fat into the sausage. It would be nice to know when the cheaper alternatives are equally as affective?

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:41 pm
by sausagemaker
Phosphate moves the Ph of meat to allow quicker water absorption & protein extraction

Soya Protein Concentrate mops up fat at the rate of 3 to 1 but must be hydrated to achieve this

Soya Protein Isolate does the same as above but will hold 5 times its weight in fat.
Both soy�s give a meat like consistency when hydrated correctly

As for which one to use this depends on what you are trying to achieve.

Hope this helps


PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:12 pm
by aussieinor
Thanks for that Richard.

Regarding Soy Protein being added, if I use Soy Protein Isolate, would you therefor add more fat to be absorbed for flavour? If you add 5 times it's weight in water, I would assume that the sausage would lose a lot of it's flavour due to the water absorption.

When using this, what rates of water/fat would you then use?

Appreciate your feedback as always :)

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:15 am
by sausagemaker
You do not need to add any extra fat, look at the fat content you have lets say you are making a sausage with 80vl meats & you know you get a good succulent sausage with that.
If you then change the meats to say 60/40
you would then add soya to sabilaise the extra fat that has been added.
once this is worked out & placed in the recipe then divide the remainder by 3 for water to rusk.
80/20 = 13% fat in recipe assuming 65% meat used
60/40 = 26% fat in recipe used assuming as above
13% fat to be stabilised so 13/3 = 4.3 round down to 4
4 x 3 = 12 water to hydrate
so recipe is
65% 60/40 meat
2.5% Seasoning
4% Soya concentrate - less if using isolate
12% Water to hydrate
remainder is divided by three for rusk / water ratio
16.5% / 3 = 5.5% rusk & 11% water

you may think the water looks very high this is because I have used a low meat content to demonstrate & a manufactures view to the problem.

When making sausage at home you probably would not use fatty meat & would normally use more than the 65% I have stated above.
In fact now the EU has reduced the meat requirements manufatcures only need to use 42% pork & soy, starch & rusk are fillers.

Hope this helps

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:44 am
by aussieinor
Thanks for that Richard, very helpful.

Yesterday I made up the Brat recipe I've used before however I didn't use any phosphates as I had run out and waiting for our delivery.

I therefor tried using SPI and I used 2% of meat weight. I used 5:1 for water to SPI taking into consideration the addition 10% belly pork and not all shoulder.

This was giving slightly more fat than what I usually use of only lean shoulder pork. Therefore I took into consideration the extra fat with the water.

I cooked up some brats today after they were in the fridge overnight and was really happy with the texture. Previously they seemed a little more coarse and mealy however with the addition of the SPI, the texture and cutting with the knife seemed perfect.

Another success!

Thanks to this forum and all it's members for your great input. It's you guys that help my sausages taste mmmmmmmmmmmmm so good :)

Re: Phospate vs Soy Proteins

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:12 am
by MontanaBison
I'm pretty confused on this still.

I'm using bison, which is maybe 10% fat. I have SPI and the recipe calls for 24 oz of water per 30# of ground meat. The SPI I have from "The Sausage Maker" says to use 1.25 cups per 10# of meat. This would mean I'm using 3.75 cups for 30# of bison meat.

Given what I'm reading here I know I need to add water, but I'm unsure how much I should be using given the recipe already has me using 24oz.

Can someone make this "stupid" for me?

Re: Phospate vs Soy Proteins

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:28 pm
by NCPaul
Welcome to the forum. :D Considering the leanness of your meat, I'm not sure you need any SPI. What problem are you trying to fix? Are you smoking your sausage? If you are trying to get the sausage to hold more moisture, I would look at how and when it is salted or at a pH adjustment.

Re: Phospate vs Soy Proteins

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:35 am
by MontanaBison
I am making a summer sausage. We are also observant Jews and slaughtered this critter ourselves, so we won't put any other critter fat into it. The recipe calls for 20% pork fat, but it's a beef recipe. Bison is super lean, pretty much no marbling.

So the problem, or so I supposed, is that it will come out too dry and crumbly, without something binding it? And the work around given we are not going to use pork fat was the SPI. Are we totally out in left field?

Re: Phospate vs Soy Proteins

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:53 am
by NCPaul
Are you planning to ferment the sausage before smoking or will you be using a product like Fermento? Can you tell us a bit more about the recipe you are considering? The low pH of summer sausage, which helps preserve it, will work against water binding.

Re: Phospate vs Soy Proteins

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:01 pm
by DanMcG
The lean meat you're using will develop a good bind with salt and proper mixing, I usually use 20% fat but 10% will work. It won't be crumbly but it could be to dry for your tastes. Could you add some beef fat?

Where did you get your recipe from?

The lean red beef will hold a lot of water by itself and at 24 oz to 30 lb that's 5%, I wouldn't go over 10% total added water.
If you use the SPI the recommended amount is 1-3% of the weight of the meat, and it holds a lot of water. I'd personally use it on the low end of the 1-3%

Re: Phospate vs Soy Proteins

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:29 pm
by MontanaBison
Here is the recipie. ... .Mahog.pdf

No fermenting. Could add beef, but won't. Kosher beef, even just fat, is stupidly expensive. That's why we butchered this critter ourselves, right here in Montana. We figure the 2k we spent on it would save us a ton of money in the end.

Re: Phospate vs Soy Proteins

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:41 pm
by herjac
This thread is interesting as I have started using SPI and have the same questions. I used SPI at the recommended rate of 1.25 cups per 10 lb and found that the product to water ratio was 1:3 in a recipe I followed. The result was a firm sausage but was difficult to stuff which has led me to find out more on this product.

LEM products suggest using soy protein concentrate, SPC, with lean meat. ... seasonings

It's interesting that they only use the weight of meat in the use ratio of the product as does "The Sausagemaker" as well but make no mention of the product to water ratio or any need to rehydrate the product.

A search on the web gives more results-

SPI is a more refined product and can bind 5x its weight in water vs. 3x for SPC.

Soy protein isolate (80-90% protein), is a natural product that contains at least 80-90% protein and no other ingredients. It is made from de-fatted soy meal by removing most of the fats and carbohydrates. Therefore, soy protein isolate has a very neutral flavour compared to other soy products. As soy protein isolate is more refined, it costs slightly more than soy protein concentrate. Soy protein isolate can bind 5 parts of water. Soy isolates are excellent emulsifiers of fat and their ability to produce the real gel contributes to the increased firmness of the product. Isolates are added to add juiciness, cohesiveness, and viscosity to a variety of meat, seafood, and poultry products.
For making quality sausages the recommended mixing ratio is 1 part of soy protein isolate to 3.3 parts of water. SPI is chosen for delicate products that require superior flavor such as yoghurt, cheese, whole muscle foods and healthy drinks. Soy protein isolates sold by health products distributors online usually contain 92% of protein.

Hope this helps.

Re: Phospate vs Soy Proteins

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:42 am
by MontanaBison
It sounds like then if I want a "juicier" product I can add more water, so the recipe should be fine...I hope. I guess I'll run a test first and adjust from there.

Re: Phospate vs Soy Proteins

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:17 pm
by MontanaBison
Followed the recipe exactly, as well as the recommended instructions on the SPI tub. The product was moist enough for me. It is quite firm. I may add a little more of the SPI next time. Now onto rendering an amazing amount of buffalo fat....