Corned beef brine concentation.

[Salmo]

I started my first corned beef yesterday from the following recipe
2 tablespoons black peppercorns
1 tablespoon plus 2 teaspoons dried thyme
6 bay leaves, crumbled
2 teaspoons whole cloves
1/4 cup minced garlic
2 teaspoons whole juniper berries, plus 1/3 cup crushed juniper berries
16 cups (or 4 quarts) water
3/4 cup packed light brown sugar
3/4 cup kosher salt
1 beef brisket (about 4 to 5 pounds)
2/3 cup coarsely ground black pepper

The on line source looks respectable and has many pleased users.
My concern lies with the brine concentration.
I believe there are recipes on this site calling for 8 onz of salt per pint of water,way over what's in the recipe I've used.
I did try the "egg test" & it sunk like a stone.
So-I have my brisket soaking in this brine, in a tupperware container in my fridge.
Should I add more salt to comply with the "egg test" or should I trust the recipe?????

[captain wassname]

can you post a link
salt seems v.low there is no nitrite and no indication of how long you need to leave the joint in the brine.

Jim

[Salmo]

Hello Jim
I only posted the actual recipe contents to save space,the meat is supposed to be in the brine for three weeks.
I have only used 1Kg of meat so I had to pro rata
all the quantities accordingly.
I assume this will not effect the immersion time?

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emer ... index.html

Hope the link works-I haven't done this before either

[tommix]

This is out of Rytek Kutas's book and I have used it and it is great.

Ingredients for 25 lbs., (for pump and cover pickle)
5 quarts ice water
8 ounces plain salt, not iodized
3 ounces Prague Powder #1 (Instacure #1)
3 ounces powdered dextrose ( a sweetener but not as sweet as regular sugar)

Pump the meat to about 12-15% of their green weight, put the meat in a tub and cover with the remaining pickle, throw in a couple of handfuls of pickling spices. BTW, I crush some fresh garlic and throw it in the tub as well.

Allow the meat to cure in a 36-38 degree F cooler for 3-5 days depending on big the piece of meat is.

Without cure I don't know if what you are trying to make would be considered "corned beef".

Good Luck...........Tim

[captain wassname]

I have to admit that I am not an expert on brine curing nor am very experienced when it comes to immersion curing but I can tell you that the US authorities require a 10% brine concerntrate and yours is only just over that.
The brine seems to be an equilibrium cure that would ,given a 2 kilo piece of meat in the brine for 21 days,give a final salt level of about 3%
Also as I said there is no nitrite which would make me feel uncomfortable.
With an equilibrium cure time is a factor.So if you are curing 1 kg. in half he brine you would only need half the time.Twice the time i.e.3 weeks will make little difference other than the fact that you would for sure reach equillibrium and end up with,according to my rough conversions from cups to gms.around 3.5% salt.
Having said that it is almost certain that more than 10 days per kilo is needed for equilibrium
There seems to be no need to leave a joint of beef in what is essentialy a marinade.for 3 weeks.
Hopefully someone with a bit more knowledge will be along to advise further but I dont like it.

[Salmo]

Hello Jim
You have me worried Jim
When calculating the brine concentration is it customary to add the sugar as well?
American measurements are a pain & perhaps I've made a mistake,but I made the salt concentration 4.68% w/v,using figures of 16 cups = 3776ml and 3/4 cup salt as (roughly) 177 grams.
If the States require 10% salt soln then something is obviously wrong.
All seems strange ,as the recipe is attributed to a "celebrity" chef (for what that's worth )
Sorry to say I really can't understand why (say) 2Kg of meat in 2Lt of 10% brine would take longer to cure than 1Kg in 1Lt of 10% brine.
Just seems to be counterintuitive.(explanations on a post card please)


I can see how it would take longer if the joint were thicker,as the salt would have further to penetrate, but a joint that was just "longer",which is what I would expect with brisket,doesn't seem right .
Anyway,I'm sure you ,or somebody else here, will be able to explain it to me.
Thanks again for your help & advice.
Mel

[captain wassname]

Hi Mel.
An attempt at a brief explaination.

If a piece of meat is placed in a brine containing soluables (salt and sugar) then at some point the soluables will reach equalibrium. For instance Ikg of brine containing 100gms salt and 50 gms sugar covering a kg.piece of meat will eventually reach a stage where the salt and sugar are dispersed equally through the whole system. at this point every kilo (brine or meat )will contain 50 gms salt and 25 gms sugar.
It was thought that this state was reached in about 10 days per kilo of meat..Thus 2kg takes twice as long as one even in identical brines.
Dont ask I dont know why.Nor do I know if 2 seperate pieces take the same time as one big piece
NC Paul did an experiment which seemed to prove that 10 days was a bit optimistic.
Back to your brine it would seem that it was constructed to give a salt level of 3 to 3.5% at the end and this was achieved by restricting the salt levels in the brine.
I still think that nitrite is needed over this length of time.
I wouldnt use it but maybe someone else could advise you differently.

[Salmo]

Hello Jim
Thanks for the explanation.
I get the impression that your thoughts are in line with mine.
If the 2Kg joint is cut in half you have 2 x 1kg ,so??????
Anyway,lets not get controversial.

I appreciate your concern over the lack of nitrite in the recipe.
If it allays your fear at all,my fridge is at 2.9C & I intend to cook & eat the joint as soon as it's ready.

Thanks again
Mel

[captain wassname]

Hi Mel

FWIW It is my belief that the 2 smaller pieces would take over 20 days.Whereas if brined separately they would take half the time.
If you are bent upon continuing you can remove from the brine in 10 days and end up with meat as per recipe.This is for certain ,and would as far as I am concerned ,be a better option.

[NCPaul]

Salmo, could you post the weights of water, meat, salt and sugar you actually used? Since you have already started this project it may be difficult to straighten out. A 10 % brine concentration is used to keep spoilage bacteria at bay, you seem to be far short of that.

[Salmo]

Hello NCPaul

I used:
961 grs brisket
1500ml water
53 grs brown sugar
85 grs table salt
plus the herbs & spices.

I calculate the brine strength to be 5.6% NaCl which is slightly stronger than the recipe. (4.68%)
After doing the "egg test" I started to add more salt ( included in the amount stated here) but I realised it would require a lot more, so stopped.
Of course,my figures could be off as I had to convert cups to metric,but I believe they are OK.
I will be very interested in your views,particularly as the recipe source appears to be reliable.

I've just been looking in Keith Erlandson's book "Home Smoking and Curing" which has further confused me (not difficult!)
On p130 he has a table of brine strengths in which he claims that 125grs of salt in 1gallon (4540mls) of water gives a brine strength of 10%
Using 125/4540 x 100 I get 2.75%
There is clearly something wrong with the way one of us (at least!!) is calculating %
Cheers
Mel

[captain wassname]

Hi Mel. FDA calculate brine concenration as total salt divided by total salt plus total water. x 100 whch would be 5.36.
I suspect that the 10% quoted in your book is 10% of saturation. but I could be wrong

Jim

[Salmo]

Hello Jim
Thanks for the info on the salt calculation.
Don't suppose you happen to know if that's just an American way of doing it or is it universaly accepted?
I used to work in the chemical industry & we certainly didn't calculate % like that-still,who am I to argue with the FDA?

I have taken another look at Erlandson's chart and although it doesn't say % of saturation I believe you are correct.
Thanks for that,there is enough contradictory information floating around the web without finding errors in a respected book.

Just hope NCPaul doesn't tell me to throw my brisket away!!

Cheers
Mel

[NCPaul]

I wouldn't give up that easy. If it were me, this is what I would do: drain off 1100 g of the brine (holding back the spices if you can) then dissolve in the remaining brine 3.7 g of cure # 1, 9 g of salt and 6 g of sugar. You may have to transfer everything to a new container that the meat just fits in. Wait ten days then cook it and report back. Good luck.

[Salmo]

Hello NCPaul
I don't have any curing salts (apart from a commercial dry bacon cure & I don't know it's exact composition)
Can I just increase the table salt?
With such a small volume of brine I think I will have to use a zip-lock bag,will that be OK?
Certainly on a learning curve here
Cheers
Mel