Hi
have searched and read loads of posts but still a bit confused so I want advice for a first time set of instructions
What I have
piece of pork leg 1.7kg
Potassium Nitrate (225 gm) crystals !no idea how much water of crystallization
Table salt (1kg) ! and it's 30 years since I worked in a lab
Sugar (3kg)
What I do not have
injection syringe
accurate scales
What I plan (Unless someone tells me it is dangerous
Mix
500gm salt
1 level teaspoon Potassium Nitrate (suspect 5gm)
200gm sugar
some spice (whatever I can find {Ginger? All spice? Cloves?])
Dry rub the meat every day for a week, keep it in the fridge and dry between rubs
Rinse
Boil 5 mins
Drain
Transfer to slow cooker for a few hours
EAT
A rough and ready calculation makes me think it would be if ALL the nitrate was taken up (and no water is lost from the meat) it would be 1500ppm but if 10% of the cure is taken up I would get 150ppm. So with water loss it would be safe to eat
Any advice before I start?
Thanks in advance
George
first try ham advice please
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first try ham advice please
by georgebaker » Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:03 pm
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by Chuckwagon » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:05 pm
Hi George,
If I had any experience with potassium nitrate, I'd come over and give you a hand. But here in the states we only use sodium nitrate/nitrite cures. They are uniform and regulated by law. In Europe, your potassium nitrate "saltpeter" cures vary in strength from country to country. A fatal dose of potassium nitrate is merely 30 grams. Our sodium nitrite will cancel your clock at only about 22 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. You can see why this stuff has to be handled correctly. So, without knowing EXACTLY what you have, I'd be most hesitant to use it. Please check with Phil Young (Wheels). He knows more about this stuff than anyone I know, and he'll be happy to do the math for you, I know. One more thought here - Sodium nitrate and nitrite is not expensive. As your life may depend upon knowing exactly the strength you are using, why not toss out the questionable stuff and purchase some modern cure, carefully measured, and correctly labeled by a reputable company. Don't forget to purchase a brine injector. If you are brine curing the ham, you'll need it in order to reach the centermost parts. If you dry-cure the ham, then you simply rub the cure on the surface and have much longer to wait! For quality products, I don't think you'd find a more reliable source than this site's supply (Sausagemaker.com)
I'd like to repost a couple of my favorite ham recipes for beginners. I'll track them down and post them here in just a few minutes.
I hope you don't think I'm poking my big nose in your business, but I'd just hate to see the wrong stuff hurt you or anyone else. Good luck George - and check with Phil for his recommendatiions.
Your friend, Chuckwagon
If I had any experience with potassium nitrate, I'd come over and give you a hand. But here in the states we only use sodium nitrate/nitrite cures. They are uniform and regulated by law. In Europe, your potassium nitrate "saltpeter" cures vary in strength from country to country. A fatal dose of potassium nitrate is merely 30 grams. Our sodium nitrite will cancel your clock at only about 22 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. You can see why this stuff has to be handled correctly. So, without knowing EXACTLY what you have, I'd be most hesitant to use it. Please check with Phil Young (Wheels). He knows more about this stuff than anyone I know, and he'll be happy to do the math for you, I know. One more thought here - Sodium nitrate and nitrite is not expensive. As your life may depend upon knowing exactly the strength you are using, why not toss out the questionable stuff and purchase some modern cure, carefully measured, and correctly labeled by a reputable company. Don't forget to purchase a brine injector. If you are brine curing the ham, you'll need it in order to reach the centermost parts. If you dry-cure the ham, then you simply rub the cure on the surface and have much longer to wait! For quality products, I don't think you'd find a more reliable source than this site's supply (Sausagemaker.com)
I'd like to repost a couple of my favorite ham recipes for beginners. I'll track them down and post them here in just a few minutes.
I hope you don't think I'm poking my big nose in your business, but I'd just hate to see the wrong stuff hurt you or anyone else. Good luck George - and check with Phil for his recommendatiions.
Your friend, Chuckwagon
Last edited by Chuckwagon on Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by Ianinfrance » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:24 pm
Hi there,
Just to make a tiny correction, forgive me.
Sodium nitrate -has the chemical formula Na NO3 and saltpetre is potassium nitrate (normally - pure potassium nitrate) KNO3 It doesn't vary in strength, and I don't really know where you got the idea it did.
Without wanting to get too technical, what matters is the acid radical the "Nitrate" part = NO3 the metal ion (Na or K) is pretty well irrelevant except in that the two metals "dilute" the nitrate to a different extent.
The Nitrate part has a molecular weight of 62. NaNO3 has molecular weight 85 and KNO3 has molecular weight of 101. So it takes 101 gms of KNO3 to give the same amount of curing ability as 85 gms of NaNo3.
The only worry about using KNO3 might come about if using a real lot of it, and then the sodium/potassium levels in the body/blood might become disturbed.
Hope that's reasonably clear.
Just to make a tiny correction, forgive me.
That's not quite right, I'm afraid.Chuckwagon wrote:Hi George,
But here in the states we only use sodium nitrate/nitrite. It is uniform and regulated by law. In Europe, your "saltpeter" varies in strength from country to country.
Sodium nitrate -has the chemical formula Na NO3 and saltpetre is potassium nitrate (normally - pure potassium nitrate) KNO3 It doesn't vary in strength, and I don't really know where you got the idea it did.
Without wanting to get too technical, what matters is the acid radical the "Nitrate" part = NO3 the metal ion (Na or K) is pretty well irrelevant except in that the two metals "dilute" the nitrate to a different extent.
The Nitrate part has a molecular weight of 62. NaNO3 has molecular weight 85 and KNO3 has molecular weight of 101. So it takes 101 gms of KNO3 to give the same amount of curing ability as 85 gms of NaNo3.
The only worry about using KNO3 might come about if using a real lot of it, and then the sodium/potassium levels in the body/blood might become disturbed.
Hope that's reasonably clear.
All the best - Ian
"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." c. 2800 BC
"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." c. 2800 BC
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by wheels » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:50 pm
George
Chuckwagon (kind guy that he is) overstates my abilities. But what you are trying to do is dry cure a piece of meat - I don't quite grasp whether it is your plan to use all the cure you make up over your 7 day curing period?
Firstly, Saltpetre takes a while to work, so I would cure for a minimum of 10 days, and even better nearer 14 days.
If you only use 35 - 45 gm in total of your mix you will be OK from a safety point of view.
I would apply this all at the start and rub it in well - at most apply it in two lots retaining the first lot on the meat when you add the second. If possible keep it refrigerated at just below 8°C - saltpetre doesn't work well at lower temperatures than this.
After removal from the cure, wash it briefly and hang it in your fridge (or preferably a cool place at around 8°C) for a week or so before cooking to give the cure a chance to equalise throughout the meat, and for the saltpetre to reduce further.
Personally, the use of saltpetre without accurate scales worries me. To illustrate, the amount needed to cure your 1.7kg piece of meat is around 0.25gm! However, if you're confident you can measure 5g accurately, using the amount of cure I state above will give you between 146PPM and 187PPM Nitrate - at best within EU guidelines and at worst still well within the US ones.
Of course, whether the ham will cure fully, or be any good, is in the lap of the Gods.
I hope this helps - please post the results (if only to let us know you are still alive!
)
Phil
Chuckwagon (kind guy that he is) overstates my abilities. But what you are trying to do is dry cure a piece of meat - I don't quite grasp whether it is your plan to use all the cure you make up over your 7 day curing period?
What I plan (Unless someone tells me it is dangerous
Mix
500gm salt
1 level teaspoon Potassium Nitrate (suspect 5gm)
200gm sugar
some spice (whatever I can find {Ginger? All spice? Cloves?])
Dry rub the meat every day for a week, keep it in the fridge and dry between rubs
Firstly, Saltpetre takes a while to work, so I would cure for a minimum of 10 days, and even better nearer 14 days.
If you only use 35 - 45 gm in total of your mix you will be OK from a safety point of view.
I would apply this all at the start and rub it in well - at most apply it in two lots retaining the first lot on the meat when you add the second. If possible keep it refrigerated at just below 8°C - saltpetre doesn't work well at lower temperatures than this.
After removal from the cure, wash it briefly and hang it in your fridge (or preferably a cool place at around 8°C) for a week or so before cooking to give the cure a chance to equalise throughout the meat, and for the saltpetre to reduce further.
Personally, the use of saltpetre without accurate scales worries me. To illustrate, the amount needed to cure your 1.7kg piece of meat is around 0.25gm! However, if you're confident you can measure 5g accurately, using the amount of cure I state above will give you between 146PPM and 187PPM Nitrate - at best within EU guidelines and at worst still well within the US ones.
Of course, whether the ham will cure fully, or be any good, is in the lap of the Gods.
I hope this helps - please post the results (if only to let us know you are still alive!
)
Phil
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by captain wassname » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:02 pm
George
The US DOA allow a max of 2187ppm Nitrate(potassium or sodium) i.e.2.187 gms per kilo for dry curing. In the absence of accurate scales its probably as well to to carefully weigh out 10 exact teaspoon and see what they come to and to be on the safe side repeat the process.I dont know too much about dry curing but I do know that nitrate takes some time to work so you may have to leave your ham for 10 days or so after the last application
If this is the case you really need some nitrite to give you some instant (more or less) protection
If Im wrong then you need in round figures 3 gms nitrate or a max of 3.7gms.
Hopefully someone who knows more about it will be along soon
Sorry I couldnt be of more help
Jim
The US DOA allow a max of 2187ppm Nitrate(potassium or sodium) i.e.2.187 gms per kilo for dry curing. In the absence of accurate scales its probably as well to to carefully weigh out 10 exact teaspoon and see what they come to and to be on the safe side repeat the process.I dont know too much about dry curing but I do know that nitrate takes some time to work so you may have to leave your ham for 10 days or so after the last application
If this is the case you really need some nitrite to give you some instant (more or less) protection
If Im wrong then you need in round figures 3 gms nitrate or a max of 3.7gms.
Hopefully someone who knows more about it will be along soon
Sorry I couldnt be of more help
Jim
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by Chuckwagon » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:12 pm
Hi Ian, and my best regards. Thanks for catching this point.
Perhaps I should re-phrase: What I meant to imply was that our American "Cure #1 is set by law at 6.25% sodium nitrite in salt. I surely didn't intend to refer to the chemical itself as being variable. I should have said, "Cures containing saltpeter vary in parts of Europe".
In the United States, the strength of Cure #1 is 6.25% nitrite in salt. In the UK, nitrited salts vary in strength. One MUST look at the label to be safe. In Sweden they call their product Colorazo at 0.6%. In France, it’s Sel nitrite’ at 0.6%. In Poland, they call their nitrited salt Peklosol at 0.6%, and in Germany, it is Pokelsalz at 0.6% nitrite content in salt. As you can see, American “cure #1” is ten and a half times stronger than European cures, with the exception of some of those in the UK. And with that much variation, I suggest we all check our recipes before we add any type cure.
Modern science has not produced a substitute for sodium nitrate (NaNO3) and sodium nitrite (NaNO2) nor potassium nitrate (KNO3) used as agents to preserve meat and destroy clostridium botulinum. As these salts are poisonous used in proportionately greater amounts, companies have continually tried to improve upon them. It has not been done. However, mixed precisely, uniformly, and in specific weight-by-volume amounts determined by the Federal Food And Drug Administration, Griffith Laboratories produces the chemicals with a safe sodium chloride vehicle available to the consumer as "Prague Powder # 1" also known as "Instacure #1" (for use in smoked and cooked sausages, ham, and jerky), and "Prague Powder # 2" also known as "Instacure #2" for use in dry-cured sausages and meat products. Note that formula #1 contains nitrite while formula #2 contains both nitrite and nitrate. One curing agent must never be confused with the other within any recipe and one certainly must not be substituted for the other. If you mix, cure, and smoke sausage, or cure and smoke hams, it becomes your responsibility to follow directions mixing exactly four ounces Prague Powder with one hundred pounds of meat, or for us home consumers, precisely two level teaspoons mixed with a little water for even distribution, for each ten pound batch of sausage. If you are mixing merely five pounds of sausage, add only one level teaspoon of curing salt. Measure twice - mix once!
Best Wishes, Chuckwagon
Perhaps I should re-phrase: What I meant to imply was that our American "Cure #1 is set by law at 6.25% sodium nitrite in salt. I surely didn't intend to refer to the chemical itself as being variable. I should have said, "Cures containing saltpeter vary in parts of Europe".
In the United States, the strength of Cure #1 is 6.25% nitrite in salt. In the UK, nitrited salts vary in strength. One MUST look at the label to be safe. In Sweden they call their product Colorazo at 0.6%. In France, it’s Sel nitrite’ at 0.6%. In Poland, they call their nitrited salt Peklosol at 0.6%, and in Germany, it is Pokelsalz at 0.6% nitrite content in salt. As you can see, American “cure #1” is ten and a half times stronger than European cures, with the exception of some of those in the UK. And with that much variation, I suggest we all check our recipes before we add any type cure.
Modern science has not produced a substitute for sodium nitrate (NaNO3) and sodium nitrite (NaNO2) nor potassium nitrate (KNO3) used as agents to preserve meat and destroy clostridium botulinum. As these salts are poisonous used in proportionately greater amounts, companies have continually tried to improve upon them. It has not been done. However, mixed precisely, uniformly, and in specific weight-by-volume amounts determined by the Federal Food And Drug Administration, Griffith Laboratories produces the chemicals with a safe sodium chloride vehicle available to the consumer as "Prague Powder # 1" also known as "Instacure #1" (for use in smoked and cooked sausages, ham, and jerky), and "Prague Powder # 2" also known as "Instacure #2" for use in dry-cured sausages and meat products. Note that formula #1 contains nitrite while formula #2 contains both nitrite and nitrate. One curing agent must never be confused with the other within any recipe and one certainly must not be substituted for the other. If you mix, cure, and smoke sausage, or cure and smoke hams, it becomes your responsibility to follow directions mixing exactly four ounces Prague Powder with one hundred pounds of meat, or for us home consumers, precisely two level teaspoons mixed with a little water for even distribution, for each ten pound batch of sausage. If you are mixing merely five pounds of sausage, add only one level teaspoon of curing salt. Measure twice - mix once!
Best Wishes, Chuckwagon
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it probably needs a little more time on the grill.
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by wheels » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:42 pm
George
I'm not contradicting Jim (captain wassname) he is, of course, correct what he says about the US guidelines - they allow limits (in dry curing) far and above the figures I have used. However, the more recent EU laws are far, far lower - which leaves us with a bit of a quandry.
I have erred on the side of caution for your cure because of the short period of time involved, given that saltpetre is 'slow release'. Within reasonable limits a bit more won't hurt, but there is always the worry of any cumulative effect over time.
Phil
I'm not contradicting Jim (captain wassname) he is, of course, correct what he says about the US guidelines - they allow limits (in dry curing) far and above the figures I have used. However, the more recent EU laws are far, far lower - which leaves us with a bit of a quandry.
I have erred on the side of caution for your cure because of the short period of time involved, given that saltpetre is 'slow release'. Within reasonable limits a bit more won't hurt, but there is always the worry of any cumulative effect over time.
Phil
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by Ianinfrance » Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:39 pm
Hi Chuckwagon,
Thanks a whole bundle for clarifying it.
Blimey!!!!! I completely missed this. I just saw the figures 6.25 and 6 and missed the order!!! Thanks so much for rubbing it in, as I could very easily have made a Ruhlman recipe with only 1/10th the correct amount of Nitrite. I've been promising myself to make some pancetta when my cellar starts to have the right conditions of humidity and temperature, which will be be soon now.
I'd add to that. READ three times and CHECK carefully. I'm not dumb, but completely missed the order difference in strength.
Aha!!! Yes. I'd completely misunderstood what you said.Chuckwagon wrote:Hi Ian, and my best regards. Thanks for catching this point.
Perhaps I should re-phrase: What I meant to imply was that our American "Cure #1 is set by law at 6.25% sodium nitrite in salt. I surely didn't intend to refer to the chemical itself as being variable. I should have said, "Cures containing saltpeter vary in parts of Europe".
Thanks a whole bundle for clarifying it.
Chuckwagon wrote:In the United States, the strength of Cure #1 is 6.25% nitrite in salt.
[snip]
In France, it’s Sel nitrite’ at 0.6%.
[snip]
As you can see, American “cure #1” is ten and a half times stronger than European cures,
Blimey!!!!! I completely missed this. I just saw the figures 6.25 and 6 and missed the order!!! Thanks so much for rubbing it in, as I could very easily have made a Ruhlman recipe with only 1/10th the correct amount of Nitrite. I've been promising myself to make some pancetta when my cellar starts to have the right conditions of humidity and temperature, which will be be soon now.
Chuckwagon wrote: Measure twice - mix once!
I'd add to that. READ three times and CHECK carefully. I'm not dumb, but completely missed the order difference in strength.
All the best - Ian
"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." c. 2800 BC
"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." c. 2800 BC
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by georgebaker » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:17 pm
Hi
IIRC HFW says1kg salt 10gm saltpeter for a belly Rub for 7 days so that was my starting point
Now have an injector #1.59 in a farm shop at a pear day in yorkshire
Still not sure what to do. I feel like the day before I taught myself to use a chain saw--kinda scared
George
IIRC HFW says1kg salt 10gm saltpeter for a belly Rub for 7 days so that was my starting point
Now have an injector #1.59 in a farm shop at a pear day in yorkshire
Still not sure what to do. I feel like the day before I taught myself to use a chain saw--kinda scared
George
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by wheels » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:52 pm
George
No comment on HFW's cures.
There's a guide to injection curing here:
http://forum.sausagemaking.org/viewtopic.php?t=4862
Phil
No comment on HFW's cures.
There's a guide to injection curing here:
http://forum.sausagemaking.org/viewtopic.php?t=4862
Phil
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by saucisson » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:20 am
Mixing nitrate in with large amounts of salt and sugar and then using a small amount can be extremely dangerous due to the different particle sizes meaning you cannot guarantee effective mixing. You could end up with no nitrate or nearly all of it on your piece of meat (extreme examples obviously...)
I would follow this:
If you can't get ascorbate/Vit C you can leave it out, but bare in mind the nitrosamine issue.
Alternatively, I would be happy to weigh out the correct amount of potassium nitrate for the 1.7 kg and send it to you so you can add it all to the meat with the relevant amount of salt and sugar.
Dave
I would follow this:
Oddleys Dry Cure (Saltpetre)
Meat 1 kg
Saltpetre 0.5 Grams (500 ppm)
Salt Weight 20 grams (2%)
Sugar Weight 10 grams (1%)
Sodium Ascorbate 0.55 grams (550 ppm)
Or if you want to make up a mix then:
Saltpetre 5 Grams
Salt Weight 200 grams
Sugar Weight 100 grams
Sodium Ascorbate 5.5 grams - Sodium L-ascorbate; E301 - You could however; assuming that ascorbic acid (vitamin C, E300) is allowed by the applicable codes/standards; substitute it for sodium ascorbate though based on their molecular weights you would need to reduce the amount used by 16.667 %
Usage 31 grams per 1 kg meat
method:
Rub the required amount of cure into the meat 90% into the meat side 10% into the rind. Put into a ziplock bag then into the bottom of the fridge, at a temp of 1 - 4 C for 10 days per 1 kg meat. when done take meat out of the bag thoroughly wash under cold water and return to the fridge uncovered for 2 days for drying and equalisation of salts.
The ascorbate is a modern addition, principally to prevent the formation of nitrosamines that can be converted to compounds that have been linked to cancer (in some studies) if the bacon is cooked at too high temperatures/burnt. It also acts as a curing accelerator
If you can't get ascorbate/Vit C you can leave it out, but bare in mind the nitrosamine issue.
Alternatively, I would be happy to weigh out the correct amount of potassium nitrate for the 1.7 kg and send it to you so you can add it all to the meat with the relevant amount of salt and sugar.
Dave
Curing is not an exact science... So it's not a sin to bin.
Great hams, from little acorns grow...
Great hams, from little acorns grow...
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by georgebaker » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:25 am
Hi
thanks for the offer
I have decided not to go ahead at this time but to fine a more accurate way of weighing the cure components
BTW How do you weigh a whale?
Take it to a whaleway station
George
thanks for the offer
I have decided not to go ahead at this time but to fine a more accurate way of weighing the cure components
BTW How do you weigh a whale?
Take it to a whaleway station
George
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by saucisson » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:35 pm
Good plan 
Give a shout if you want any advise on sensitive scales. The place I got mine seems to have stopped trading but I know others here have purchased there's relatively recently.
Dave
Give a shout if you want any advise on sensitive scales. The place I got mine seems to have stopped trading but I know others here have purchased there's relatively recently.
Dave
Curing is not an exact science... So it's not a sin to bin.
Great hams, from little acorns grow...
Great hams, from little acorns grow...
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by captain wassname » Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:32 pm
George :for scales try
http://business.shop.ebay.co.uk/Electri ... 86.c0.m283
there are a few suppliers.
Jim
http://business.shop.ebay.co.uk/Electri ... 86.c0.m283
there are a few suppliers.
Jim
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