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I am at present doing some research into absorbtion of salt and cure from brine .
I am somewhat restricted as I am only curing 1 or 2 kg pieces and as there are only two of us only 1 or 2 pieces per month.
In short Im looking at weight gain especially in the early stages,
I have monitered 2 pieces 1.3 and 1.6 kg. and am more than hopeful that I may be able to find a pattern
The intention is, with help, to find a speedier but safe way of immersion curing than we have at present.
I measure weight gain at 12 hour intervals what I would appreciate if any brine curers out there could measue weight gain over 12 hour periods until finished
I would need to know brine composition.
This is a long term project which I think may take 2 years or so ,so the more results I

get the sooner the better.
just post here or pm me
Many thanks in advance to all who may reply.And any help which Im sure I will receive

Jim

captain wassname wrote:The intention is, with help, to find a speedier but safe way of immersion curing than we have at present.

???? need some input on this please.

I measure weight gain at 12 hour intervals what I would appreciate if any brine curers out there could measue weight gain over 12 hour periods until finished

Could you expand on what constitutes as finished
I do immersion curing every week, 16 loins down yesterday usually a minimum of twelve. If you let me know what is needed I can feed you the numbers.

Hi BriCan thanks for the prompt reply.
At present we are reccomending brine curing using this

http://forum.sausagemaking.org/viewtopi ... ght=method

This is a method that Phil worked out with a little help from me.Its based on an experiment by NCPaul who deseves most of the credit.
We both think that there is a quicker and just as safe way to immersion cure.

When I say finished I mean cured for the length of time according to this method which should give a nitrite level within UK and US laws.
As we are interested in shortening this process I decided to weigh the joints at 12 hour intervals to see the weight gains.
Now I know that a weight gain in itself will not tell me how much salt,sugar and, most importantly ,nitrite is present.
I decided to use a brineometer (hydrometer) to measure the salt content of the brine.
This will mean I need a salt and nitrite only cure as any sugar may effect the specific gravity of the brine.
My plan was to construct a brine so that when the salt level in the meat was2% (20 gms per kilo) it would contain2.5 gms cure no 1.(per kilo)
At this stage I would know the weight gain and the salt and nitrite levels because I will know
The weight of the Meat
The weight of the brine
The amount of salt in the brine and hence
The amount of salt(and nitrite) in the meat

This should give me an understanding of how we may construct a cure for these quite small pieces.Your knowledge of large joints will Im certain be invaluable

So as long as its not commercially sensitive I would love to know your brine strengths at start,how long you cure for and how do you know how much nitrite is in the finished product.

I had a look at the BC Highland games website and they seem to indicate that you may have more than one competetor,not sure if you need to reasses your targets. anyway Best of luck tomorrow

Jim

I cured a pice of leg and thought I would keep an eye on the weight gain heres what happened.
starting weight 1305 gms. skin cover approx30%
I used the 2-1 brine.

15 hours 1339 gms a gain of 34 gms 2.605%
24 hours 1353 gms a gain of 48gms 3.678%
36 hours 1357 gms a gain of 52 gms 3.984%
50 hours 1365 gms a gain of 60gms 4.597%
72 hours 1375 gms a gain of 70 gms 5.363%
96 hours 1384 gms a gain of 79 gms 6.053%
120hours 1383 gms a gain of 82 gms 6.283%
240 hours 1390 gms a gain of 85 gms6.513%

I cant explain the slow up between 24 and 36 hours maybe a measuring error.but I think not

second ham. started at 1639 gms approx 25% skin. this is a loin joint.
Brine716 gms water
63 gms salt
6.2 gms cure no 1
34 gms muscavado sugar
12 hours 1674 gms a gain of 35 gms. 2.14%
24 hours 1686 gms a gain of 47 gms 2.86%
36 hours 1695 gms a gain of 59 gms 3.41%
48 hours 1703 gms a gain of 64 gms 3.9%
60 hours 1713 gms a gain of 74gms 4.51%
72 hours 1712 gms a gain of 73 gms 4.45% loss of 1 gm. in 12 hrs
85 hours 1726 gms a gain of 87 gms 5.3%
96 hours 1733 gms a gain of 94 gms. 5.73%
108 hours 1738 gms a gain of 99 gms 6.0%
126 hours 1744 gms a gain of 105 gms 6.4%
144 hours 1747 gms a gain of 108 gms 6.58%
168 hours 1747 gms a gain of 108 gms 6.58%
204 hours 1746 gms a gain of 107 gms 6.52% a loss of1 gm in 38 hours
228 hours 1744 gms a gain of 105 gms 6.4% a loss of 2 gms in 24 hours.
288 hours 1737 gms a gain of 98 gms 5.98% a loss of 7 gms in 60 hou

Think I should have kept on measuring my first bit as this one was losing weight at the end.

To paraphrase NCPaul "you need to experiment to find out what experiment you need to do"

So I need to get a brineometer a crude instrument I will agree but it should do for my purposes

As I said earlier my first attempt will be to construct an all salt cure that will deliver 150 ppm ish at 2% salt.
per litre of brine: 900 gms water 87.5 gms salt 12.5 gms cure#1(Grateful for a math check)

I will further mess about with the brineometer to see what results I get when I mix salt and sugar.
I am inclined to think that the weight gains will be similar with salt only as the rusults I had with salt and sugar mix.
Altough it makes little difference how much brine we use I am inclined to keep it to a minimum as changes will be easier to read in small amounts of brine
If anybody thinks Im a pillock and unhinged I would be pleased to hear from you especially if you can tell me why.Or if you can see Im going to kill myself

You might try a refractometer instead of a salinity meter. There are published tables of salt solutions v refractive index and you can also use it for your beer making.

captain wassname wrote:Hi BriCan thanks for the prompt reply.
At present we are reccomending brine curing using this

http://forum.sausagemaking.org/viewtopi ... ght=method

This is a method that Phil worked out with a little help from me.Its based on an experiment by NCPaul who deseves most of the credit.
We both think that there is a quicker and just as safe way to immersion cure.

It seems I need to do a bit of reading, thanks for the link.

My plan was to construct a brine so that when the salt level in the meat was2% (20 gms per kilo) it would contain2.5 gms cure no 1.(per kilo)
At this stage I would know the weight gain and the salt and nitrite levels because I will know
The weight of the Meat
The weight of the brine
The amount of salt in the brine and hence
The amount of salt(and nitrite) in the meat

This should give me an understanding of how we may construct a cure for these quite small pieces..

Looking at this the one thing springs to mind (not that you would have not thought about it) looking at your readouts is the lack of recorded temperatures of the enclosed unit you are using and also the temperature of the brine, both are critical to your test. Curing temperature should be between 36 - 40 degrees F (2.5 - 4.5 degrees C).

I tend to be anal when running test so at least I have most of the answers to the 'what if questions'

If I'm out of line let me know

Hi BriCan I cant say I was aware of the importance of temp. I had assumed,luckily,that brine would be kept on the bottom shelf of the refridgerator. in much the same way as dry cured joints.I take it that temp.effects the speed of cure.So in answer to your question the brine and its contents were kept at less than 5 C.
No rush I know you have a busy day tomorrow and I wont be doing anything for at least a couple of weeks
No worries about being in or out of line I know bugger all about brine curing Im just a numbers man.

Jim

captain wassname wrote:Hi BriCan I cant say I was aware of the importance of temp.

If things are to be done right then temperature is important.

I had assumed, luckily, that brine would be kept on the bottom shelf of the refrigerator. in much the same way as dry cured joints. I take it that temp.effects the speed of cure.

You are right on this point, a thing that new comers (and some olduns) are not aware off or just take for granted.

So in answer to your question the brine and its contents were kept at less than 5 C.

But did you keep a record of both (as you are running a test)

No rush I know you have a busy day tomorrow

Just finished slicing 120 kg of bacon

and I wont be doing anything for at least a couple of weeks
No worries about being in or out of line I know bugger all about brine curing I'm just a numbers man.

While working on cutting the bacon I had to take breaks (a blown out knee) and kept on coming back to this. I tend to do a lot of thinking while working and to me there seems to be an oxymoron in the first post (to me, that is). I have made a phone call to a very good friend (my counter part CFIA) and will be talking to him on Sunday. He hails from the UK and worked for one of the large bacon cures.

Robert

Cheers Robert
I will certainly make notes of temp It makes sense to try to limit any variables when testing.
Thinking while working aint a good idea.Cost me the top of a finger.Was thinking instead of looking

Jim

captain wassname wrote:Cheers Robert
I will certainly make notes of temp It makes sense to try to limit any variables when testing.

Just got off the phone (1 1/2 hours) with my mate, need to put thoughts down on paper for you so will post a little later.

Thinking while working aint a good idea.Cost me the top of a finger.Was thinking instead of looking

Battle scars don't look good these days, might have been in my younger days trying to pull a one night stand

Robert

captain wassname wrote:Cheers Robert
I will certainly make notes of temp It makes sense to try to limit any variables when testing.

Just got off the phone ( 1/2 hour) with my mate, need to put thoughts down on paper for you so will post a little later.

Thinking while working aint a good idea.Cost me the top of a finger.Was thinking instead of looking

Battle scars don't look good these days, might have been in my younger days trying to pull a one night stand

Robert

Im off to Scotland for a bit tomorrow so if I dont post back its not cos Ive took the hump

Jim

Well like Jim I am still working on this but with a lot of reservations, I have done my due diligence and read from the link back to most if not all threads until my head hurts. I have trouble saying what I really think/feel probably due to being a fairly new kid on the block and that I do this for a living and also I have been reminded; most are home cures and sausage makers with restrictions of working on a very [compared to mine] small scale.

With trying to get my head around with what people in past threads about Method 1 and Method 2 I tried to read PROCESSING INSPECTORS' CALCULATIONS HANDBOOK on line but ended up doing a print off. Upon reading pages 23 on I came to the conclusion that this is not written for the average layperson but for the big commercial guys. How come you say; if we look at the example on page 23 for the cover pickle formula we will see the following; water, salt, phosphate, dextrose, sodium erythorbate, sodium nitrite. For the average home curer all that is needed are the following; water, salt, sugar, cure. I do mine with water, all purpose curing salt and sugar.

If we look at the original question that Jim asked

-- I am at present doing some research into absorption of salt and cure from brine.

and the following;

-- The intention is, with help, to find a speedier but safe way of immersion curing than we have at present.

With all that has been said I am wondering if we know the difference between immersion curing and saturation curing.

Jim if I may, what was the reason for picking a 12 hour interval in weighing the product, and could someone explain/point me in the right direction of what you are calling immersion curing we have at the present.