3 Questions from a newbie

Tips and tecniques on dryng drying, curing etc.

3 Questions from a newbie

Postby sausage202 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:09 pm

I have numerous questions and I’ve searched a ton but I think I’m either overthinking it or confused and not sure when I find the replies if they are applicable to my situation.

Question #1-I tagged along for deer sausage making this year and we did about 1800 lbs. We used a cure #1 and gave them a smoke in a smokehouse and came back the next day and did a second smoke. They then just hung for 5 weeks. I asked my brother because they too have a group of guys that does sausage and they do it the same way but they hang for 6 weeks. The more and more people I talk to, this seems to be the norm? My question is no one seems to be taking temperatures of the sausage? Does the cure #1 take care of the cooking process all together or simply protect it between 40-140 this or do you still have to get it to 165*.

Question #2-What is the shelf life on something like the above because when do you start the countdown?

Question #3-I don’t have a smokehouse, etc…and I do like mine more on the harder side with a softer middle (not like summer sausage)…Wouldn’t I just smoke it till the desired firmness and then put in cool water/spray down and then let bloom for a few hours? If that’s the case, couldn’t I still leave them out under 50 degrees in a dark area for weeks if I wanted for them to dry more before vacuum sealing?
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Postby tommix » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:01 pm

I will let the other experts here comment further but if this is going to dry for any length of time I think that you need cure #2.
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Postby sausage202 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:15 pm

I just spoke to my brother and he uses saltpetre...Is that considered a #1 or #2???
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Postby captain wassname » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:53 am

Not too sure about anything else but cure#1 plus salt petre is more or less cure #2,Depending on the quantities of each used.The salt petre is for long term protection.

Jim
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Re: 3 Questions from a newbie

Postby vagreys » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:42 pm

sausage202 wrote:...Question #1-I tagged along for deer sausage making this year and we did about 1800 lbs. We used a cure #1 and gave them a smoke in a smokehouse and came back the next day and did a second smoke. They then just hung for 5 weeks. I asked my brother because they too have a group of guys that does sausage and they do it the same way but they hang for 6 weeks. The more and more people I talk to, this seems to be the norm? My question is no one seems to be taking temperatures of the sausage? Does the cure #1 take care of the cooking process all together or simply protect it between 40-140 this or do you still have to get it to 165*. ...

Cure #1 contains sodium nitrite. Sodium nitrite is what protects against botulism. It dissipates quickly. If the sausage is going to hang for more than a couple of weeks, then it needs longer term protection. Sodium nitrate is used for longer term protection.

While it doesn't protect against botulism, itself, naturally occurring bacteria in the sausage break down sodium nitrate into sodium nitrite, and the sodium nitrite does protect against botulism. Think of sodium nitrate as time-released sodium nitrite. Cure #2 contains sodium nitrite (for immediate protection) and sodium nitrate (for longer term protection).

Cure #1 is ok for sausages that aren't going to hang for more than a couple or three weeks, but for sausages that are going to hang for a month or more, you really want to be using Cure #2.

The reason for adding Cure #1 to sausage that is going to be hot-smoked, fully-cooked and then eaten, refrigerated or frozen, is to protect against the proliferation of C. botulinum bacteria (that cause botulism) as the sausage warms from 40°F through 140°F during the hot-smoking process. Once the middle of the sausage reaches 140°F, it has reached a temperature where pasteurization can occur and pathogens are being killed by the heat. Raising the sausage to an internal temperature of 165°F ensures that the sausage is pasteurized.

Saltpeter is potassium nitrate. Potassium nitrate is like sodium nitrate, and is a time-released form of potassium nitrite. Potassium nitrite is like sodium nitrite, and prevents botulism. So, your brother is using saltpeter to provide longer term protection.

Without knowing more about what your friends are actually doing in their processing, it is impossible for any of us to judge whether they are being safe or unsafe. It is certainly safer to monitor the temperature of the sausage as it is smoked, to ensure that it has pasteurized and/or fully-cooked. It may also be that your friends have been making their venison sausage long enough that they think they know the sausage is fully-cooked and safe. All I can tell you is that I don't mess around with botulism. Safety comes first, and that means monitoring temperatures throughout the process and using proper curing techniques.

HTH
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Postby sausage202 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:57 pm

Thank you for the reply. I just was told we too were using saltpeter as well. Does the IT still need to get to 165* because if it didn't on the first or 2nd smoke, it never would have.
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Re: 3 Questions from a newbie

Postby vagreys » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:07 pm

sausage202 wrote:...Question #3-I don’t have a smokehouse, etc…and I do like mine more on the harder side with a softer middle (not like summer sausage)…Wouldn’t I just smoke it till the desired firmness and then put in cool water/spray down and then let bloom for a few hours? If that’s the case, couldn’t I still leave them out under 50 degrees in a dark area for weeks if I wanted for them to dry more before vacuum sealing?

Not without proper curing. Is the sausage cooked or raw? Is it cold-smoked or hot-smoked? Are you using Cure #1 or Cure #2? If what you want is a venison salami, not a venison summer sausage, then you need to be using proper air-dried sausage processing technique for salami.

Botulism is not something to mess around with. There is a reason why the root word for botulism is the same as the Latin root for sausage. If you are going to make cured, air-dried sausage, you really, really need to understand curing before you start. I strongly recommend that you read and understand the following two books before you go much further:

Meat Smoking and Smokehouse Design by Stanley and Adam Marianski

The Art of Making Fermented Sausages by Stanley and Adam Marianski

For up-to-date information about sausage in general, and to learn more about semi-dry and dry-cured sausages, read Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages by Stanley and Adam Marianski.

A good book on venison sausage is The Venison Sausage Cookbook: A Complete Guide from Field to Table by Harold Webster.
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Postby vagreys » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:13 pm

sausage202 wrote:Thank you for the reply. I just was told we too were using saltpeter as well. Does the IT still need to get to 165* because if it didn't on the first or 2nd smoke, it never would have.

If they are using saltpeter at appropriate levels then the sausage doesn't need to be fully cooked before hanging, depending on the recipe; in fact, some recipes for dry-cured sausage start with raw sausages that are never cooked. It all depends on what you are trying to achieve.
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Postby salumi512 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:13 pm

Does the 202 in your name refer to a Washington DC area code? The reason I ask is that saltpetre is not approved for use in the US. So what actual product is being used?

I find that most wild game sausage in the US is cooked to temperature by the processing facilities in a hot smoke environment, but I have seen fresh sausage as well. Either way, once packaged, they are still usually kept in the freezer for any period longer than a couple of weeks.

As stated by others, you would have to post the exact recipe and process to get any specific feedback on what is going on. Every processor has a different recipe from my experience.
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Postby sausage202 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:49 pm

I will get the exact item that was used for ours. It came in a baggie from a local butcher/sausage shop.

No, 202 isn't my area code. I'm in the Midwest. I didn't know that. Is there something similar to saltpetre because I know I've had this coversation with my brother several times.
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Postby salumi512 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:07 pm

There are a lot of options for what someone might call saltpetre as a generic term. Popular items are Morton's Tender Quick, and DC Curing Salt which comes in two varieties.

It is unlikely to actually be saltpetre if you bought it from a store / butcher.
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Postby sausage202 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:51 pm

salumi512 wrote:There are a lot of options for what someone might call saltpetre as a generic term. Popular items are Morton's Tender Quick, and DC Curing Salt which comes in two varieties.

It is unlikely to actually be saltpetre if you bought it from a store / butcher.


Ahhh...I see. I'm not sure how I feel about the cure #2's...I smoke a lot of food but this is a whole new animal (no pun intended) to me. I'm going to get ryteks book and just start simple. Reading stuff online just scares me too much. Lots of info but not always correct.

Thanks again for the help
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Postby SausageBoy » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:58 pm

sausage202 wrote:
salumi512 wrote:There are a lot of options for what someone might call saltpetre as a generic term. Popular items are Morton's Tender Quick, and DC Curing Salt which comes in two varieties.

It is unlikely to actually be saltpetre if you bought it from a store / butcher.


Ahhh...I see. I'm not sure how I feel about the cure #2's...I smoke a lot of food but this is a whole new animal (no pun intended) to me. I'm going to get ryteks book and just start simple. Reading stuff online just scares me too much. Lots of info but not always correct.

Thanks again for the help


FWIW, Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages by the Marianski's is much more thorough and up-to-date.

http://www.amazon.com/Home-Production-Q ... 0982426739
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