Dry cure bacon help

Air dried cured meat and salami recipes

Postby steptoe » Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:49 pm

Mod Edited: Sorry, not relevant to the discussion.
sorry for the ramble just a fed up brit i guess
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Postby BBQer » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:00 pm

I agree with you, Patricia. It is a bit confusing, but also very interesting. I really do like to learn new information.

Thank you Oddley and Dougal. I do appreciate the debate and exchange for the sake of my learning this craft.
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Postby steptoe » Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:54 pm

why did a mod edit it was relevant ,why should we here give a monkeys uncle what the americans say we can and can't have in our food we are bowing down to these countries
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Postby dougal » Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:38 am

steptoe wrote:... why should we here give a monkeys uncle what the americans say we can and can't have in our food we are bowing down to these countries

Sorry steptoe, but I think you've missed the point.

The American authorities are worried about the risk from nitrosamines.
The EU (inc British) regulators are not. (Well, not worried enough to do anything, yet.) I think that's a reasonable official position, but I can understand that American lawyers force their government to minimise risks to individuals, requiring a different official posture.

If you are worried about nitrosamines, then the thing to do is to follow the American advice, in its entirety.
But you don't have to.
(Unless you plan to sell your bacon in the USA...)
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Postby steptoe » Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:00 pm

Mod edited: Rant removed, please do not post this again.
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dry cured bacon

Postby VitaminX » Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:32 am

VitaminX, If you have something to offer here you are very welcome, but at the moment your are being condescending. Please repost though, as your input is certainly of interest.
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Postby Ianinfrance » Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:52 pm

Hi,
BBQer wrote:I agree with you, Patricia. It is a bit confusing, but also very interesting. I really do like to learn new information.

Thank you Oddley and Dougal. I do appreciate the debate and exchange for the sake of my learning this craft.
I'd like to add my voice to those who thank you both for your exchanges. As an ex chemist I do have an inkling of the processes involved, though I've no idea as to whether the risks from nitrosamines are serious or trivial. I do know that when we used one of them in the lab, we had to take special precautions because they are a "known carcinogen". But there's clearly a world of difference between the risks involved in handling a strong solution and those from possibly ingesting microgram quantities.

There is one question mark in this, for me. It might have been mentioned in the literature, whose quotes I have to admit I skimmed through.

As I see it the main bone of contention between you is as to the role of ascorbic acid/ascorbates vis a vis nitrates. Now, (and I'm speaking here purely as a chemist, but one who's a layman in terms of pork curing) ascorbic acid is pretty powerful "anti-oxidant" right? In other words it's a powerful _reducing_ agent. Well, I'd have thought that you can put a reducing agent with a nitrite and the nitrite would have nowhere to go, as it's already reduced. However, putting a reducing agent (charcoal, or sulphur) with a nitrate, and the process of reduction of the nitrate is rapid and even explosive. So I would expect ascorbic acid to have a role to play vis-a-vis nitrates.

And that's where I find myself in difficulties, because the literature all talks about the use of ascorbates to "control" nitrites. And I don't really see how it does this.

Any ideas anyone?

Oh... and reading the E numbers on Franco's smoky bacon cure, I find sugar, salt, sodium nitrite, potassium nitrate and ascorbic acid listed. just for interest.

Lastly, I think it's fair to say that much US food legislation and recommendations are made more with an eye to preventing possible future legal (class) action, than because of any proven perceivable risk. I can think of several such examples. So officially recommended practice on the other side of the pond is often ultra cautious. To those of you reading this, please don't take this as any kind of a kneejerk anti american sentiment because I know many of you are as unconvinced by the necessity of their position as I am.
All the best - Ian
"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." c. 2800 BC
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Postby saucisson » Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:13 am

As I understand it, nitrite is further reduced to nitric oxide which then reacts with myoglobin to produce the red/pink colour. But that's only my understanding, so I'd take it with a pinch of salt :D
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Postby Ianinfrance » Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:34 pm

saucisson wrote:As I understand it, nitrite is further reduced to nitric oxide which then reacts with myoglobin to produce the red/pink colour. But that's only my understanding, so I'd take it with a pinch of salt :D
Quite right!! I've just a good look (googly woogly for nitrite ascorbate reactions) and this popped up!

http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/x6556e/X6556E02.htm

ATB
Ian
All the best - Ian
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ascorbic acid usage by hobbyists

Postby VitaminX » Sun Dec 24, 2006 4:58 pm

Quote:
VitaminX, If you have something to offer here you are very welcome, but at the moment your are being condescending. Please repost though, as your input is certainly of interest.
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/Quote:

The usage of ascorbic acid and its salts in the meat processing industry is somewhat controversial. There are enormous benefits of using it, but there are also some downfalls that could prove to be safety risks (eg. After the curing process is finished, you get a meat that is not cured).

There are strict rules if ascorbic acid is used in brines/pickles. These rules are taught to cure specialists.

More and more small processing establishments (some of which are known to me), discontinued ascorbic acid use.

Even the usage of it as an acidifier in cooked sausages is currently being put under the magnifying glass (GDL seems to be working better).

The only non-controversial usage of it is as mist-spraying of fully cooked and sliced products.

Usage of ascorbic acid by hobbyists is not recommended. They simply don�t have the skills to use it successfully.

You certainly are entitled to have your opinion about my post. However, I made it because you missed to do so on your web site.

By removing it, you did disservice to your customers and forum visitors, and definitely put them in a safety risk.

Regards,
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Postby aris » Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:04 pm

VitaminX - do you work in the industry?
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Re: ascorbic acid usage by hobbyists

Postby Ianinfrance » Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:35 pm

Hi,
VitaminX wrote:There are strict rules if ascorbic acid is used in brines/pickles. These rules are taught to cure specialists.


Are you including all ascorbates in this, or only ascorbic acid. Because in the reading I've just been doing, a clear differentiation is made between them.
All the best - Ian
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Postby DanMcG » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:54 am

I've been having some good discussion on another forum about nitrosamines and while searching for more info here, I came across this thread.
I'm mainly posting here now so I can find this thread again, but also to see if anyone has anything to add to the debate. I'm still not sure I understand why the US doesn't allow nitrAte in there bacon? is it because it will continue to break down to nitrite and create nitrosamines?
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Postby BriCan » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am

DanMcG wrote:I've been having some good discussion on another forum about nitrosamines and while searching for more info here,

I had a look at it yesterday :)
I'm mainly posting here now so I can find this thread again, but also to see if anyone has anything to add to the debate. I'm still not sure I understand why the US doesn't allow nitrAte in there bacon? is it because it will continue to break down to nitrite and create nitrosamines?

A catch 22 thing -- most North Americans love to cremate there bacon thus in there minds (FDA ?) making it carcinogenic. As a very good friend of mine said there is no proof and the best way around it is not to over cook :roll: :roll:
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Postby wheels » Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:31 pm

I've always assumed that it's because it's impossible to know how much of the nitrate will convert to nitrite. Because of this, residual nitrates can't be calculated and could be a large percentage of the ingoing amount.

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