How do I make them feel happy all the way to the end?

All about bread

How do I make them feel happy all the way to the end?

Postby gr0124 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:17 pm

This probably is a simple one.

I make bread. Pretty simple procedure. Sourdough from whole wheat flour.

So, the last thing I do, I put the dough in the forms and put it in the warm oven. I preheat it a little bit.

In about an 1-2 hours I carefully open the oven not to shake anything or not to bring the wind draft inside.

I see that dough jave risen well almost to the top of the form.

Then I set the oven to bake. about 450 *F, and "BAKING".

Set up my cell alarm for about 1 hour to wake me up when it is done.

I wake up come to the oven, bread is done baked completely. The problem is that now instead of being almost at the top of the form as I would like, the top of the bread went down significantly, back almost to what original level was before I have put it to rise???

This makes me feel real stupid, because it seems I did everything right and it is little microorganisms that live in the dough were very upset with me, before they died.

While there were so happy enjoying the meal I gave them that they have probably were having one of the best fiestas in their live, but right after that I have burned them. So, what should I do to keep them happy?

I probably also would be mad if somebody first feeds me good meal but then put me in the fire, and before I die I would try to make the person that did it to me feel bad. I understand that.
Still, there should be a way around it?
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Postby beardedwonder5 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:32 pm

Put simply, you have let the dough overrise. I assume that by "form" you mean a breadpan. As a first attempt to correct your problem half fill your breadpan with dough which you have consolidated in the pan. In English, punch down the dough. Try to put ennough dough in the pan so that when punched down it half fills the pan; you might have to add dough, you might have to subtract dough. If you're a beginner you have to check the dough every 15-20 minutes as it rises A clock or watch, for a beginner, is useless. Turn on the oven full blast when the dough is about 10mm/1/2" below the rim. Let the dough rise until it is about 5mm/1/4" above the rim. If you oven is adequately powered, it should now be about 400 F. Turn the temp down to what your recipe says. Put the bread into the oven. In 40-50 minutes (on average) the bread will have baked. To check, take it out of the oven. Remove it from the pan. Give it a thump on the bottom. It should sound hollow. Good luck.
GOS, yeah!!!
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Postby gr0124 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:20 pm

Sorry, my knowledge of English is bad.
My comprehension is even worse, so I will kind of asking questions again, making sure I do understand your answers. I apologize for that, I am not native English speaker

<<Put>>???
OK, let me see if I understand you. When I have filled the form it was about 1/3 of the volume. When it did rise, you right, it was almost at the top. So, do you mean, that "NOT OVERRISEN" should be about 2/3 when I turn the heat?


<<I>> ---I have 2 forms, look like rectangulars. Got them in K-MART. Non-stick

<<As>>-->
So, you are saying, "make sure you fill up half a form, not 1/3 not 2/3 exactly 1/2"???? Is that right?

<<In>> I have thought punch down you do when you knead it? Maybe this is what I am missing?
Because this is what I do to the dough before I put it in the forms-->

I take half of my sourdough , put in clean glass bowl, cobver and put in refrigerator. This will be used as a starter next time.

The rest of the dough, I add more flour, little salt, little corn oild, little sugar, some water. Keep adding water and mixing it with a big spoon in the big kitchen aid glass bowl.
Keep mixing it with spoon until it looks and feels like it is done goos and there is no remains of dry flour in the mix. I do not take it out of the bawl , and knead it on the wooden board. I do not do that.
Do I have to? I have read somewhere that it really is OK just to mix it in the bowl without kneading it on the board? It could be that place I read it ws a wrong advice? What do you think?

<<Turn on the oven full blast when the dough is about 10mm/1/2" below the rim>> -->
Do you mean that I turn heat first to temperature little below 450F and only later "full blast"
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Postby beardedwonder5 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:49 pm

You can fill your breadpan with any amount of dough. The dough should rise until it is about double in size. At that point, into the oven. In your initial attemp you filled the bread pan 1/3 full; it shoukd have gone into the oven when it had risen to fill 2/3 of the pan.

It follows that before the dough had risen to fill 2/3 of the pan, the oven shoukd have been turned on - so that when the dough had doubled (i.e., filled 2/3rds of the pan), it could be put into the oven which had reached the right temp.

You don't have to fill the pan exactly half full. But if you do (and everything goes right) the loaf will end up with the normal shape for bread baked in a tin.

So if you started with the pan 1/3rd full and let it rise nearly to the top, it had tripled (X3) in sze. Once in the oven it woukd try to rise more - a then just collapse. The dough can only support so many bubbles; too many buubles of a large size and it's like thousands of balloons bursting.

If your dough is at a reasonable temp when you finish kneading it, it will rise more as you put it in the pan. You want to punch it down and into the corners of the pan.

Your last question. The goal is to have the oven very hot when the loaf goes in. The heat makes the loaf spring up. But you don't wish to keep the heat very hot - just hot. The coolness of the loaf will lower the temp. and you turn the heat down. Sufficient heat to bake; not so much as to burn the crust.

Good luck.
GOS, yeah!!!
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Postby gr0124 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:21 pm

Again, thanks a lot, still there is something in your answer that I probably interpret differently than you expect me to. So, I want to remove more uncertanity. Sorry, again, I am not native English speaker?

You are saying:
<<You>>

So, you literally mean --> "When you have filled the form with the dough (half full; hit the dough couple of times with your fist---This is what you call "punching down???" Is not it?", again , please excuse me for my English"). But this is really what you mean, punch it down while it is in the form?

You use word "pan" but it is same as my "form"? Right?
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Postby vinner » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:26 pm

gr:

Did I understand that you let the dough rise in the oven, and then turned the oven on while the form with the dough was still in the oven?

Your form with the dough should NOT be in the oven as it heats up.
" To be the stewards of what we have been given, to reap what we sow, to enjoy the harmony of it all.

me
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Postby gr0124 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:38 pm

<<Did>>

Yes, you are absolutely right.

<<Your>>

So, I beleive we are coming to the source of the problem.
Are you saying "this is how it should be done:-------->when the dough have risen enough, take the form out of the warm, preheated oven outside, put it on the counter for a while, in the mean time put oven in the "BAKE, 450F regime", let it get to full heat, and then only then put the form back in"??

Can you,please, confirm it one more time. If this is what it means it just proves how blind I am, I was doing it for last half a year.

Gregory.
Thanks again
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Postby vinner » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:46 pm

Gregory:

I let the dough rise in the form until almost to the top of the form, but I don't let it rise in the oven at all. I just find a room that is fairly warm (like near my clothes dryer or television).

When it is almost to the top of the form, I turn the oven on. By the time the oven has heated up to the correct temperature, the dough has risen further to where it is just over the top of the form.

When the dough is just over the top of the form, put it in the oven to bake.

If this is not clear, feel free to ask again.
" To be the stewards of what we have been given, to reap what we sow, to enjoy the harmony of it all.

me
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Postby gr0124 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:12 pm

<<I let the dough rise in the form until almost to the top of the form, but I don't let it rise in the oven at all. I just find a room that is fairly warm (like near my clothes dryer or television).>>-----------> So how long it takes for the dough to rise in that place?

I do not remember why I do it in the oven?
Probably I have found that it is just rises faster.
For me it makes a difference. Because this rise usually happens when I get back from work and it is rather late. So, about 12midnight I put it in the warm oven to rise and it takes about 1-2 hours to rise.
I do not put any yeast, it is all from starter, so it is not as strong as with yeast. That probably why I put it in the preheated warm oven. Otherwise if I would keep it in the room, it will rise by the morning, so then I have to leave to work and I will loose the bread. If the bread finishes rising by 1-2AM, I still have time to fix things if they went wrong and finish baking before I leave to work

Another question; I kind of am afraid that I will "spook" the fragile thing taking it out putting it in, so I do everything in one place, in the oven.

Also I am guaranteed that there is no wind making the dough "catch the cold" and "get sick"
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Postby vinner » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:24 pm

Gregory:

Just make certain that the room is not too "drafty", or "windy", and the dough will be fine. If you put it in the oven when it is just over the top of the form, it should not be too fragile and should not fall.

I can't tell you how long it takes to rise, as that is a function of your recipe. However, mine rises in the form in a room as we discussed in about 1 and 1/2 hours. You may have to experiment.
" To be the stewards of what we have been given, to reap what we sow, to enjoy the harmony of it all.

me
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Postby vinner » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:30 pm

Gregory:



One more option:

Let the dough rise in the form in the warm oven as you have been doing, until it is just at the top of the form. Then take it out, and heat your oven up. When it is hot, then put it back in to bake. It should have risen to just over the top of the form by then.
" To be the stewards of what we have been given, to reap what we sow, to enjoy the harmony of it all.

me
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Postby gr0124 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:53 pm

<<Let>>

It does fits well in my theory of "happy party for bacterias"

They ("bacterias") would be in the process of having a happy party (eating and procreating at their best) when suddenly they are put in the full fire.

This will not leave them anytime to "revenge" before they die and spoiling my "happy hour".

I definitely will try this one first.
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