Curing Pork Loin, plz help

[wheels]

The US levels of cure are in the FDA PROCESSING INSPECTORS' CALCULATIONS HANDBOOK see:

http://forum.sausagemaking.org/viewtopic.php?t=1906

You should note that the high levels for nitrate are on the assumption that the meat will be cured for a very long period of time - such as the US Virginia Ham. Other countries have much lower levels in more recently made regulations. For example, the EU maximums for new products is 150 mg/kg (Parts per million).

The handbook also gives details of how to calculate these levels - the methods aren't as obvious as you'd think they'd be. In particular the method of calculation for the immersion part of a cure. This is even more compounded by the small size of the piece of meat.

As Jim said, these rules are made for commercial curing where they do large amounts at a time, not 1kg.

The calculations for injection and dry cure are somewhat simpler, hence mine and Jim's suggestions.

The cure calculation is also compounded by the sole use of nitrate, which can often take 10 days or more to work. The problem is how to get a cure that can be injected and immersed for 10 days in something that will protect it from going off, and not over/under cure it, whilst still being safe and edible. Oh, and still comply with two different methods of calculation!

Miracles, we do: the impossible takes that little bit longer!

Watch this space, one or other of us will get back to you soon.

Phil

[warston]

so what i understood is that there is NO WAY at all for me to cure the 1 KG of ham using only the Nitrate without the Nitrite :S :S :S ?


if not


the dry way also demand nitrite anyhow ?

omg i will go crazy after buying all the ingredients and can't do anything .. ahhhh ...

[captain wassname]

Roger I have described a cure which will cure your 1 kg loin using nitrate
I dont understand why you dont want to use it.
Phil will be along soon

Jim

[warston]

jim thank you a lot for your precious help as well ! i dono why i'm confused about the pumping stuff ... i have read some recipes where they pump it and then IMMERSE it in brine for some days !! i just now knew from you that u r speaking about pump and then drying !! ok i will try this way and see

thx

[wheels]

The other option would be to calculate the cure as an immersion cure assuming curing to equilibrium, but then inject a proportion of the brine - it would only put very little nitrate/salt etc in by way of the injection. The bulk of the curing would be via the immersion cure.

Personally though, I'd advise against this and do as Jim has advised, but if you're adamant you want to do it, I can give you have a recipe but will need to know the exact weight of the meat. Obviously, never having done it, I can't vouch for the end result.

Phil

[captain wassname]

Roger
Phil is offering a very elegant solution to your problem.,indeed one I am happy that you follow
You should note that his solution as well as mine are dependant upon weights and measures but both our thoughts are tha you should be not curing in an unsafe manner.


Jim

[warston]

wow OK guys, that's good ! thanks for both help !

so now i have 1 way mentioned by you phil ( Rub-dry way) and other one ( Pump ) mentioned by u Jim !!

if you don't mind Phil i would like much to have the immersion way for the same info i told you before

meat weight: 1 KG

* can i use 50% of the measures that you provided me before if i wanna use 500 grams of meat ? or can i double it if i wanna use 2 KG of meat ? or it's not the way that the things being calculated for the cures ?

[captain wassname]

with my cure you just make up brine in the proportions as I desribed
for a loin 1640 gms its best to make up enough for 2kg.
That is twice the 35gms water etc and then inject
50x1.64 gms of brine.That is 82 gms of brine.
The rub would just be multiplied by 1.640.
If you use Phils pump and immersion method you would need to tell him the exact weight of your pork and he will calculate brine to suit.
You cannot double his figures for a piece twice the size
Incidentaly I wouldnt mess with bits under a kilo

Jim

[warston]

hi guys
2day i brought 2 pcs of pork loin, cleaned them from every fat almost

i could not get some sensitive scale to weigh milligrams, so i was obliged to multiply the amounts with 55 to get things this way:

0.2 milligram nitrate x 55 = 11 gram Nitrate

0.4 ascorbic x 55 = 22 gram ascorbic

5 grams sugar x 55 = 275 gram sugar

10 x 55 salt = 550 gram salt

35 gram ( or milliliter) x 55 = 1925 gram water

4 grams of sodium tripolypshosphat ( in the regulations it should be more but still ... )

pump was at 10%

but what makes me afraid was that the things all didn't dissolve totally ! and i'm afraid that not enough nitrate went to the brine becoz i filled my needle with the brine that was close from the tope .. so i'm afraid that i will not get the good result .. what u think about it ?


so after i injected the meat , i weight it again , and it got like 10 percent of it's weight ( 1.100 KG) then i wrapped it with plastic nylon ( cling film)

and my 12 days count down started with turning the meat day to the other side ..

did i missed anything ?
will the meat be edible after the 12 days or i have to boil it or something ?
thanks for helping
Roger

[captain wassname]

As far as I am concerned you need to dump this .
I gave you a brine which was designed to be injected at 50 gms per kilo.
You chose to inject at 100 gms per kilo
You then added sodium tripoltysulphate without asking
You also pm'd other members without posting on open forum I wouldnt hazarsda guess as to how long it needs to be cured for.
You came here asking for a cure containing only nitrate and were advised that nitrite would be better but nonetheless two of us attempted to come up with solutions and all we got were quotes from from the FDA prosseors book
and an ignoring of advised recipes without prior consultation.

Jim

[warston]

excuse me ??? are u trying to help me or to rebuke me ?

- u helped me before giving me recipe and i was thankful much, then i came to see the percentage of each ingredients over the FDA and regulation of other sites like Poland (http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/) and it was all matching to what you mentioned EXCEPT the pumping lvl .. all were mentioning same amount of nitrate suger salt and stuff , but 10% pump, then i PMed you asking you why the FDA saying that the pump lvl is 10%( http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSI ... 7620-3.pdf Page 7) and you didn't answer me , but asked me to post on open forum to write all what your wrote openly ?

i didn't add the sodium tripoly as i liked , but as measures were mentioned over the site that selling it and i PMed you this ..

http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fss ... exce.shtml

+

http://www.butcher-packer.com/index.php ... 8fd4514fb4

- when was pm other members is wrong without posting on open forums ?

i explain my situation that the only thing availble for me was NITRATE and in this country there is no pink salt and cure#1 , other wise i won't bother all of this , and i was thankful as well for you and Phil for coming up with something helping me
still if i was you i won't be aggressive this way to explain or to HELP ppl out in such a way ..

[captain wassname]

Your ham needed 0.16 gms nitrate and 0.4gms ascorbic per kilo and 20 gms salt and 10 gms sugar per kilo.
We decided that the nitrate and ascobic would be injected together with half the salt and half the sugar.
The percentage pump is not important what is important is that you inject 0.16 gms nitrate 0.4 gms ascorbic 10 gms salt and 5 gms of salt.
into every kilo of meat
I chose to give you this in 50 gm per kilo brine
Each 50 gms brine contained the above.So 5% pump was all that was neede.
Had I intended a 10% pump the brine would have been 0.16 gms nitrate,0.4 gms ascorbic ,10 gms salt,5 gms sugar and 85 gms water.
I chose 5% for two reasons
! :it is far easier to inject 50 gms into a kilo of pork rather than 100 gms.
2: its a bit easier to mix 20 gms ascorbic and 8 gms nitrate with 1750 gms water rather than 4250 gms water.
I said mix 1750 gms water with 20 gms ascorbic and 8 gms nitrate there is a reason for this.The most important ingredients are the ascorbic and nitrate. I also said to to mix 70 gms of this with 20 gms salt and 10 gms sugar.
You appear to have ignored this and mixed the whole lot together all at once,or worst still adding the nitrate last.
A 5% injection was close to saturation and if you were bent on adding the sodium tripoly you should have asked and I would have told you that it should be rubbed rather than injected.
Your ham now has 320 ppm of nitrate,Well above EU limits and 800ppm ascorbic which is above all limits.It also has 3% salt and 2% sugar.
As I said it is best thrown away.
The reason for posting on open forum is so that if you get bad advice members will intervene.
You will notice that nobody has said Im wrong.

[wheels]

You will notice that nobody has said I'm wrong.

No, and I'll go further. Not only will I say that you're not wrong, but you are totally correct. Personal Messages are just that - Personal. They are not for asking supplementary questions about something that has been/or should be asked on the forum (unless there are exceptional circumstances).

It's partially my fault - I answered Warston's PM's as a matter of courtesy to a new member. However, I should have referred him straight back to this thread. That said, I wasn't also aware that he was PM'ing you as well. Had I have been, I'd have been damned annoyed.

Phil

[warston]

Your ham needed 0.16 gms nitrate and 0.4gms ascorbic per kilo and 20 gms salt and 10 gms sugar per kilo.
We decided that the nitrate and ascobic would be injected together with half the salt and half the sugar.
The percentage pump is not important what is important is that you inject 0.16 gms nitrate 0.4 gms ascorbic 10 gms salt and 5 gms of salt.
into every kilo of meat
I chose to give you this in 50 gm per kilo brine
Each 50 gms brine contained the above.So 5% pump was all that was neede.
Had I intended a 10% pump the brine would have been 0.16 gms nitrate,0.4 gms ascorbic ,10 gms salt,5 gms sugar and 85 gms water.
I chose 5% for two reasons
! :it is far easier to inject 50 gms into a kilo of pork rather than 100 gms.
2: its a bit easier to mix 20 gms ascorbic and 8 gms nitrate with 1750 gms water rather than 4250 gms water.
I said mix 1750 gms water with 20 gms ascorbic and 8 gms nitrate there is a reason for this.The most important ingredients are the ascorbic and nitrate. I also said to to mix 70 gms of this with 20 gms salt and 10 gms sugar.
You appear to have ignored this and mixed the whole lot together all at once,or worst still adding the nitrate last.
A 5% injection was close to saturation and if you were bent on adding the sodium tripoly you should have asked and I would have told you that it should be rubbed rather than injected.
Your ham now has 320 ppm of nitrate,Well above EU limits and 800ppm ascorbic which is above all limits.It also has 3% salt and 2% sugar.
As I said it is best thrown away.
The reason for posting on open forum is so that if you get bad advice members will intervene.
You will notice that nobody has said Im wrong.

that's exactly what i needed to know ! i just don't like that i compare something to other finding differences and i don't understand why , all what i wanted is to understand why 5% and why 10% and i asked 2 times about the reason but i got no answer ..

the very reason why i do use PM for forums sites is that it pop up and u notice it, because i notice that when i post the answer was late and that is normal, because many people doesn't have the time to check forums topic by topic, and of course i'm not the only one who is asking jim phil and others .. but with PM things go more detailed and easy to understand as it is a question directed to the person him self.

regarding Tripolyphosphate i mentioned more than once in my first posts in this topic that i'm WILLING to use it and asked about how many grams but seemed like no one said anything about it , so i got the allowed percentage from FDA but then to know now that i must rub it instead of injecting it ..

I also said to to mix 70 gms of this with 20 gms salt and 10 gms sugar

i didn't get what 70 grams ? and i rubbed the meat as u told me with the salt and suger

You will notice that nobody has said Im wrong

i NEVER said that you are wrong Jim and if i don't trust you guys, then i would never continue asking you ! but my whole point was WHY 5% not 10 % all what i needed to know the reason, and i was not answered til today!

STILL , i wanna ask and hope someone will give me good answer for it :

the FDA saying that 7 lb of Pure nitrate for 100 gal
that means after converting to grams and litters:

Each Litter of water Needs 8.38 grams ( if it is wrong plz prove me)

and in the same regulation about this formula they mention a pumping lvl of 10% .... can i understand why ?

and a BIG question is :

if you say that 320 ppm of nitrate causing the meat to be dumped , then

WHY the regulation mentions 700 ppm of nitrate( the nitrite is 200 ppm) ?!?!? i'm really concerned about understanding that

i hope someone will answer my questions because it's good to understand what the grams and each milligrams stand for and the reason of the amounts

Thanks for the above explanation Jim

[warston]

No, and I'll go further. Not only will I say that you're not wrong, but you are totally correct. Personal Messages are just that - Personal. They are not for asking supplementary questions about something that has been/or should be asked on the forum (unless there are exceptional circumstances).

It's partially my fault - I answered Warston's PM's as a matter of courtesy to a new member. However, I should have referred him straight back to this thread. That said, I wasn't also aware that he was PM'ing you as well. Had I have been, I'd have been damned annoyed.

Phil

it seems my concept of the PM is so far than yours and if PM here makes people angry ( regardless the reasons ) then i will not use it