multiple cures

[Helen]

Can you cure more than one piece of pork in the same ziploc bag using francos dry cure mix?
Helen

[Oddley]

Yes you can Helen With the proviso that it is only two high that you put the meat skin to skin and turn every day.

The reason is with Franco's cure hopefully it has been calculated on the understanding that the liquid that comes out goes back in. This liquid that comes out contains amounts of the cure that are needed to finish the process.

The reason for skin to skin is the rind and fat are none absorbent so you need the meat on the outside to absorbe the liquid. Turning every day will ensure equal distribution of the cure.

[Parson Snows]

Helen

First I must apologise but sometimes when I respond it�s late here, and I often forget that not everyone on this forum is a sausage maker and even then that the sausage makers aren�t all at the same level � myself included, personally I have learnt a lot more about people than sausage making from this site .. it�s been a rewarding experience.

Secondly I�ll try and make this as clear and precise to understand as possible though once you�ve read through it should you have any questions/clarifications please get back to me. I�ll be more than happy to answer them regardless of how small or insignificant you think they are ie �Oh I couldn�t ask him that�� go for it or PM me if you�d prefer.

You wrote

Can you cure more than one piece of pork in the same �Ziploc� bag using Franco�s dry cure mix?

First of all as I have stated before, call the mix whatever you like; this is NOT a Dry Cure Method; and should be addressed later. A proper traditional �dry cure� � though more expensive � will produce bacon far superior to this method.

Oddley wrote

Yes you can�The reason is with Franco's cure hopefully it has been calculated on the understanding that the liquid that comes out goes back in. This liquid that comes out contains amounts of the cure that are needed to finish the process.

I would strongly advise against this as �Ziploc� bags cost nothing.

THE LOGIC TO THIS BEING �

The salt part of the cure/curing process is based on the principle of osmosis, and nothing you do will change that, apart from leaving the salt out (there go those rules of physics again). Therefore the eventual liquid that will exude/seep out from the meat will be of a high proportion of plain; though not pure; water (95 % upwards plus numerous minerals etc.) and will do very little to cure the meat. Actually as a result of this action the bottom piece/bottom portion will always be sitting/soaking in a brine solution of steadily decreasing salt/cure strength. That�s why the meat doesn�t go off (or at least not as easy) less water content. We went through this before with fatman and the honey question � mead ferments and honey doesn�t, the water content makes the difference. If you really need to do this then I would suggest that you purchase a meat pump (also known as a brine/brining pump) and inject the meat with the resulting brine solution at a rate of 12 % to 15 % of its green weight (the weight as you put it into the cure). That way at least you can be sure that it is cured throughout. This brine should be injected at equal portions uniformly throughout the meat. Clearer directions can be posted if that�s the way/route that you plan to go. Though personally; I would recommend that you and everyone else try some real �dry-cure� bacon.

Oddley wrote

The reason for skin to skin is the rind and fat are none absorbent

This is basically correct though I would use the term �practically none absorbent� as only a very small amount will seep through and permutate the meat as against the rate of curing occurring at the �face� of the meat surfaces - were most of the cure will enter.

I hope that this is of some use to use, and makes it clearer. (if not remember ask/PM)

Kind regards

Parson Snows

[Oddley]

Parson These are the instructions for the commercially produced cure. As far as I remember this topic has been discussed before . The consensus being the liquid that has been produced be left in. perhaps franco would clarify matters as I use this cure I would be very interested in the answer.

WWW.SAUSAGEMAKING,ORG
Dry cure bacon instructions


Our curing bend is a mixture of salt, sugar, nitrates, and antioxidant. The meat you are using should be weighed before us.

Use 30 grammes of cure per kilo of meat (3%)

1.Rub curing mixture in well and ensure particular attention to pockets and cavities. 2. Seal the meat in a Ziploc bag and store in the fridge, turning every 2 days.

3.When the meat is cured rinse it well and leave to dry uncovered in the fridge overnight.

The meat requires a day per half inch to cure ie a 2 inch belly would require 4 days to cure and a 3 inch loin would take 6 days to cure.
Important.
Gloves should be worn when handling the cure to avoid cross
contamination from nitrites.
Clean all surfaces and utensils with a proprietary cleaner that have
come into contact with the cure.

I don't see anywhere it says empty the liquid. With all respect I don't know you or your qualifications to comment on this matter.

If you really need to do this then I would suggest that you purchase a meat pump (also known as a brine/brining pump) and inject the meat with the resulting brine solution at a rate of 12 % to 15 % of its green weight (the weight as you put it into the cure).

As I have read it most brine cures are pumped at 10% no more. Unless the brine specifically designed for more.

I would recommend that you and everyone else try some real �dry-cure� bacon.

I would be happy to see a dry bacon cure from you. With method and calculations of course.

This is basically correct though I would use the term �practically none absorbent� as only a very small amount will seep through and permutate the meat as against the rate of curing occurring at the �face� of the meat surfaces - were most of the cure will enter.

Nit picking

As a matter of fact I have tried the method I have described and the bacon came out fine. Have you

[Parson Snows]

Oddley

You wrote

I don't see anywhere it says empty the liquid.

You are correct Franco�s instructions do not specify than the liquid should be drained. What I am saying is this is technically incorrect and it is the method that needs to be revised. I await Franco�s response.

There are basically three (3) types of curing methods
1) Dry-Cured Products: Products that have dry or powdered cure ingredients applied directly to the surface(s) of the meat or poultry (ham, pork shoulder, pork belly etc.)

Typical Dry-Cure Box
Note: On the sidelines (via PMs) I�ve been foraging information from pig breeders etc. on this forum so that I can accurately post sizes, details etc. for this construction of this type of box, along with full details and calculations.
2) Brine/Pickle Cured Products: Products that are pumped or massaged with, or immersed in (then often referred to as Immersion Cure), a pickle solution of salt/cure ingredients.
and
3) Combination Cured Products (also known as Dry Salt Cured Products): Products that have had a pickle solution of salt/cure ingredients pumped into the muscle tissue (not through the circulatory system) prior to having the dry or powdered cure ingredients applied to the surface(s) of the meat or poultry. The meat or poultry may not be immersed in the pickle solution though to facilitate the penetration of the salt/cure, the surface(s) may be slightly moistened immediately prior to applying the dry or powdered cure.

Extracted from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon

�The traditional dry-cure process involves taking the meat and rubbing it, over a number of days, with dry salt or a mixture of salt, sugar and spices. It is then left to hang for up to 2 weeks in order for the moisture to be drawn out. It must then be left to cure in a cool, dry, airy environment for anything up to 9 months. Less time is needed if it is going to be smoked.�

Extracted from Hormel web site
http://www.hormel.com/kitchen/glossary. ... querytext=

�Dry Cure
A step in the curing process prior to curing that involves the rubbing of food with a mixture that is used to preserve foods. The curing compound typically includes salt, sodium nitrite, other nitrites, and seasonings that are rubbed on the surface of the meat. The meat is then hung to dry, allowing it to age anywhere from a few weeks to over a year, depending on the variety of meat that it is. Generally, the aging process is approximately six months, although it may be as long as 2 years. During this time the curing compound penetrates through the entire meat, drawing out moisture and thereby preserving the ham. The weight of the meat is greatly reduced. The loss of moisture produces a more intense flavor and deepens the color of the meat. Dry cured meats may also be smoked.�

Additional information
The Original Pig
http://www.theoriginalpig.com/prime.htm

You wrote

With all respect I don't know you or your qualifications to comment on this matter.

As I mentioned before, anyone is welcome to question any of my posts. I�m actually glad that people do, as I�m certainly not infallible � nor claiming to be so. As to my qualifications I am a mechanical/petrochemical engineer though for the last 15 years publican and sausage maker.

You wrote

I have read it most brine cures are pumped at 10 % no more

Typically the range is from 10 % up to 30+%, depending on what you are curing and the strength of the cure made. When the US standards/regulations were set up for ease of calculations the weight of one gallon (US) of pickle was set at 10 lbs, this being the weight of one gallon (US) of saturated brine (26.38 % salt at 60 �F @ sea level). The actual weight of the pickle (one US gallon) will typically be considerably less, as the weight of one US gallon of water is 8.33 lbs at 60 �F @ sea level.

You wrote

I would be happy to see a dry bacon cure from you. With method and calculations of course.

I am presently working on this; when I get the time; but it will take me a little longer than first anticipated as I will be including calculations (of course) for both UK/EU standards and US standards. I am not saying that the above cure ingredients are wrong just the fact that the meat should not be allowed to soak/sit in the exuded/resulting brine.

Recipe below extracted from Recipe Cottage
http://www.recipecottage.com/preserving ... -cure.html

�Dry Cure for Bacon & Ham

Yield: 100 Lbs meat
8 lb salt
2 lb sugar
2 oz saltpeter

Prepare the mixture with extreme care. Take half of it and put the rest aside. Use the half you have taken to rub the meat very thoroughly all over, rind sides as well. Stuff salt hard into the holes where the bones come out in the hams and into any cavities. Success lies in getting salt into the meat quickly; it's a race between salt & bacteria. If the latter win, you may lose an awful lot of valuable meat. Unless the weather is too warm - 36F or 2C is ideal but don't let the meat freeze, if you follow these instructions, the bacteria won't win. Cover all surfaces with the salt and leave on a salting tray, or a shelf, or in a box (with holes to let the pickle - the juices drawn out by the salt- to drain away), with all the joints carefully packed on top of each other. Be careful when doing this first salting to put roughly the right amounts of salt on each piece; not too much on the thinner bacon sides, but plenty on the hams. After three days give another good rubbing with half the remainder of the salt. Put the meat back in a different order to ensure even distribution of the salt all round. After another week, haul it out again and rub well with the last of the salt mixture. Put it back. Now leave it in the salt for 2 days per lb for big joints such as ham, and 1 1/2 days per pound for small joints and bacon. If you calculate on roughly a fortnight for a big side of bacon and three weeks for a large ham, you won't be far wrong. Take the joints out at the allotted time, scrub them lightly with warm water to get the loose salt off, string them and hang them up for a week or a fortnight in a cool dry place. Then either smoke them or not as the fancy takes you.�

You wrote

Nit picking

It wasn�t meant as nit picking.. more of a clarification. I apologise if it was taken that way.

Hope that this clears up some of this

Kind regards

Parson Snows

[Oddley]

Parson you have surprised me posting the recipe below without an amount to rub on the weight of meat. This recipe according Maynard Davies should be used at the rate of 1 1/2 oz per 1 lb meat. I have already done all the calculations Here.

Dry Cure for Bacon & Ham

Yield: 100 Lbs meat
8 lb salt
2 lb sugar
2 oz saltpeter

Prepare the mixture with extreme care. Take half of it and put the rest aside. Use the half you have taken to rub the meat very thoroughly all over, rind sides as well. Stuff salt hard into the holes where the bones come out in the hams and into any cavities. Success lies in getting salt into the meat quickly; it's a race between salt & bacteria. If the latter win, you may lose an awful lot of valuable meat. Unless the weather is too warm - 36F or 2C is ideal but don't let the meat freeze, if you follow these instructions, the bacteria won't win. Cover all surfaces with the salt and leave on a salting tray, or a shelf, or in a box (with holes to let the pickle - the juices drawn out by the salt- to drain away), with all the joints carefully packed on top of each other. Be careful when doing this first salting to put roughly the right amounts of salt on each piece; not too much on the thinner bacon sides, but plenty on the hams. After three days give another good rubbing with half the remainder of the salt. Put the meat back in a different order to ensure even distribution of the salt all round. After another week, haul it out again and rub well with the last of the salt mixture. Put it back. Now leave it in the salt for 2 days per lb for big joints such as ham, and 1 1/2 days per pound for small joints and bacon. If you calculate on roughly a fortnight for a big side of bacon and three weeks for a large ham, you won't be far wrong. Take the joints out at the allotted time, scrub them lightly with warm water to get the loose salt off, string them and hang them up for a week or a fortnight in a cool dry place. Then either smoke them or not as the fancy takes you.�

[Parson Snows]

Oddley

you wrote

Parson you have surprised me posting the recipe below without an amount to rub on the weight of meat

.

I apologise, for not being clearer. The purpose of the recipe (extracted verbatim from the site) was the "draining of the liquid" for a Dry-cure method.

Cover all surfaces with the salt and leave on a salting tray, or a shelf, or in a box (with holes to let the pickle - the juices drawn out by the salt- to drain away), with all the joints carefully packed on top of each other.

more than the overall content of the recipe. I should have highlighted it. I'll have a look over your calculations later, thanks

kind regards

Parson Snows

[Helen]

Helen

[Oddley]

Helen sorry we tend to go into these big discussions and that obscures the answer to the question.

The end result is I say yes it's ok as long as you have meat side out, only two high turn and regularly.

Parson says drain all the liquid off or it's not a proper dry cure.

So ring or PM Franco as it's his cure and ask if the liquid is to be left in or drained.

[Parson Snows]

Oddley wrote

Parson These are the instructions for the commercially produced cure.

WWW.SAUSAGEMAKING,ORG
Dry cure bacon instructions

Sausagemaking.org stated

Our curing bend is a mixture of salt, sugar, nitrates, and antioxidant. The meat you are using should be weighed before us.

TYPO. bend should be changed to blend
Note: this cure mentions that it only contains nitrates, therefore if correct then it would be Cure#1

Use 30 grammes of cure per kilo of meat (3%)

Sausagemaking.org stated

1.Rub curing mixture in well and ensure particular attention to pockets and cavities. 2. Seal the meat in a Ziploc bag and store in the fridge, turning every 2 days.

I would suggest adding a recommended fridge temperature here.

Sausagemaking.org stated

Gloves should be worn when handling the cure to avoid cross contamination from nitrites.

I would state rubber/latex gloves (small point)
however, here we are now mentioning nitrites and not nitrates. TYPO. or NOT?

Sausagemaking.org stated

Clean all surfaces and utensils with a proprietary cleaner that have
come into contact with the cure.

suggest rewrite
Using a priopriorty cleanser such as Milton Baby Bottle Steriliser (or equal) clean all surfaces and utensils that have come into contact with the cure.
I would add Milton Baby Bottle Sterliser etc. to give them some idea as to what to buy.

kind regards

Parson Snows

[boslow]

Helen,
I have tried dry cure as given in the river cottage books and found them to give very salty and somewhat "rubbery" results. whereas Franco's cures just work give magnificant results every time. When I have more than one piece of meat I tend to weigh out the correct amount of cure for each piece and then add some extra ingrediants to each piece. Then place each piece in its own zip lock bag and just put it in the fridge, turning each day. The bacon cured last week was Juniper and cracked pepper, Mace Coriander and chili, and the final piece was Rosemary sage and Garlic. By the way it is being eaten I think all of them were very acceptable and better than any available in the shops

[Parson Snows]

boslow wrote

I have tried dry cure as given in the river cottage books and found them to give very salty and somewhat "rubbery" results. whereas Franco's cures just work give magnificant results every time.

In his defense; taken from HFW �Making Bacon�

This recipe produces a very versatile pancetta-style streaky bacon - strong and concentrated in flavour, a little on the salty side,

kind regards

Parson Snows

[Fatman]

Cor Blimey !

Where are my sunglasses?

Just to simplify all that has been said on this thread:-

Dry Cure = Add salt or mix to meat and allow to osmosis and drain liquids as and when, but you might need to add more cure if any is lost in draining off the liquid. It is not compulsory to drain off the liquid, it still remains a dry cure.

Wet Cure = Meat which is submerged in a brine solution to cure.It is said that salts in brine penetrate the meat more quickly.(not sure that is true)

Combination Cure = Is when a a piece of meat has been injected with brine to help speed up the curing process, this applies to meats which are cured by both dry & wet methods.

Modern Dry Cure = Where the meat as been dry cured in the traditional way and then placed in a Ziploc bag or has been Vacuum packed or even placed in a bin liner sack. This again speeds up the curing process and is still acceptable to be called a Dry Cure. (the method i would reccomend for beginners)

Notes:- Bacon is allowed to regain its weight minus bone & trim plus a further 10%. Added water is then expressedin multiples of 5%, ignore the first 10% so bacon with a total of 17% added water is labelled as with having not more than 10%.

Regards

Fatman