Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

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Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby Fingers » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:01 am

Yes, its me, again :)

Reading that once the sausage has been made it needs to ferment in a very humid very warm place for a couple of days to start the curing process.

After your salami is cased, you will need to hang it for a period during which the
fermentation will begin. Warm and humid conditions tend to encourage the growth of
the bacteria necessary for fermentation. Ideally, a good spot to hang salami has no
sunlight and a consistent temperature of 65°F to 75°F (18°C to 24°C). Most dried
sausages need to hang for 3 to 5 days, depending on the size, ingredients, and the
conditions of the space (less time in warmer, damper spaces; more time in cooler,
drier spaces).
source in the charcuterie

Problem, I don't have such a natural place in the house, the warmest place is next to our sitting room woodstove fire where its about 22 DegC but the humidity will not be high at all. Also not too keen on sharing my sitting room with 6 lb of salami, if I can help it.

Would hanging them in the kitchen where its warmish about 15degC and humid during cooking, but certainly no where near a consistent temp and humidity. If so how long for before transferring from there to my cold garage?
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Re: Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby NCPaul » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:14 pm

This article has a brief description of fermentation

http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/x6556e/x6556e05.htm

The starter cultures the shop offers are here, I like F-LC myself.

http://www.sausagemaking.org/acatalog/Cultures.html

In this thread you can see how I use my oven to make a fermentation chamber

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12580

This book is an excellent resource for you to go to

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Home-Production ... s=maranski
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Re: Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby Fingers » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:27 pm

Cheers NCPaul

I have just read this.

"When making salame, a bacterial culture is added to the meat to inoculate it with a beneficial flora, rather than relying on random colonization and hoping for the best." http://curedmeats.blogspot.co.uk/2007/0 ... n-box.html

I have not planned to use any culture, is this the reason for fermenting? If I don't use a culture can I just go straight to the curing room?

However, my fan oven has a defrost setting which sets the oven at constant 30degC, add a bowl of salty water do I have a perfect fermenting chamber?! And even though I might not use a culture would it be a good thing to ferment for 24 hours before hanging in the curing room?
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Re: Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby NCPaul » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:06 pm

The use of a starter culture provides at least two safety hurdles. The first is a drop in the pH of the salami to below 5.3. This is controlled by the amount of food you provide for the bacteria and your fermentation conditions. This pH drop will provide protection from quite a number of pathogenic bacteria. The second is the large number of bacteria that you like and have added as the starter culture will decrease the population growth of bacteria you don't want. It is possible to make salami without these safety hurdles but I wouldn't do it as a first time try (I always use a starter culture).
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Re: Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby Fingers » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:21 pm

Are the signs of the bad bacteria these starter cultures prevent obvious to detect that the product has gone bad and only fit for the bin. Or like botulism, an invisible, silent, tasteless, odorless killer!

I will be using Cure #1 & #2 where required. Whilst I appreciate there maybe also flavour benefits I would like to see if I can produce something without starter cultures if possible, but obviously do not wish to kill anyone.
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Re: Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby NCPaul » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:26 pm

Are the signs of the bad bacteria these starter cultures prevent obvious to detect


They will be obvious when you are sick. The only other sure way would be to send it to a lab and have it checked. I personally use every safety measure I can and think you should do so as well.
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Re: Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby BriCan » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:22 am

Fingers wrote:
I will be using Cure #1 & #2 where required. Whilst I appreciate there maybe also flavour benefits I would like to see if I can produce something without starter cultures if possible, but obviously do not wish to kill anyone.


You can produce a good/great salames at home without using stater cultures and without killing anyone ... on saying that most home cures need all the help that they can get .. hence the starter cultures

On a side note I myself do not use them .. ferment my salames from a minimum of 3 days up to seven days total ... flavour wise in my very most humble opinion ... far better than using the cultures ... then again before others point out .. I am in the trade and have taught others on how to do this :)
But what do I know
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Re: Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby wheels » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:04 pm

With a full understanding of the processes involved as you have, and in my case, as I don't have your experience, the test equipment or access to testing, to validate the processes, I have no disagreement with what you say.

However, as you intimate, most home sausage-makers wouldn't know their pH from their elbow, so it's best to my mind to err on the side of caution.

The best advice I can give to anybody new to air-drying meat is to invest in one of the Marianski brother's books on the subject:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Home-Production ... 0982426739

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Art-Making- ... 0982426712

HTH

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Re: Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby Fingers » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:50 pm

Forgive my naive attitude, but I think they have preserved meat without the use of any starter cultures nor ph monitoring for some time. This is not rocket science.

I want to protect against the UN seen killer which I believe is botchelisum, cure 1 and 2 solve that. The rest is obvious to the nose and eyes. Is it not?
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Re: Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby wheels » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:24 am

Forgive my naive attitude...


OK, I'll be generous and forgive your naive attitude! But it helps if you're prepared to learn and be less confrontational.

I want to protect against the UN seen killer which I believe is botchelisum, cure 1 and 2 solve that.


There are many other unseen killers other than botulism.

Air dried meats are not wholly 'protected' by cures. Whilst cure is one of the things that is used, and is important in protecting against botulism, it's not the major thing that makes salami safe.

I think they have preserved meat without the use of any starter cultures nor ph monitoring for some time. This is not rocket science.


'They' may have preserved salami for some time, but they have a tradition of doing it: parents, grand-parent, etc, along with climatic conditions that make 'their' salami safe.

Do you have that? If so, why are you asking us?

If you're interested, the long term safety of salami is due to a reduction of either/or/or both pH and Aw. That's making the product more acidic, or reducing the water activity to a level where there's none left for any nasty bacteria to react with.

As pH is a lot more easily (and cheaply) tested, that's the one that's often favoured for home curing. I note that even the most famous advocates of the 'hang it in a tree, and it'll be OK' method, River Cottage, now tend to suggest that adding something acidic is advisable.

Most people will try to achieve a mixture of the two, but the easiest way of doing it, and being safe, is by a use of culture or something similar.

The rest is obvious to the nose and eyes. Is it not?


That's the daftest thing I've read in a long time. Show me anyone of the thousands of people each year who get food poisoning who's said that the food smelt and tasted funny, but that they still ate it. They all say that they loved the food at the .......... (insert your own function here) nd can't understand why they've ended up in hospital!
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Re: Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby Fingers » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:53 am

wheels wrote:But it helps if you're prepared to learn and be less confrontational.


confrontational?

wheels wrote:That's the daftest thing I've read in a long time.!


Steady on, we might just fall out.

River Cottage guy does not use cures, just salt and yes, you use your taste, nose and eyes with food. What do you do, have a sample sent away to a lab before every meal. Or do you have someone to taste it first?

Your suggesting that there are other things like botulism that KILL which are not detectable with the eyes or nose or taste. Can you clarify this fully please?

I am going to try without starter cultures, also without a little old fridge with fans in it, without PH meters, without a science kit, without humidifiers, without heaters, without coolers. I will be using SALT and CURE #1 or #2. And yes I might not get it right first time or any time like that, if I ain’t got the right conditions to cure, then I simply cannot cure.
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Re: Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby Dibbs » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:04 pm

Fingers wrote:
wheels wrote:Your suggesting that there are other things like botulism that KILL which are not detectable with the eyes or nose or taste. Can you clarify this fully please?


e. coli, listeria, salmonella, campylobacter for starters.
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Re: Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby wheels » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:22 pm

Fingers wrote:River Cottage guy does not use cures, just salt and yes, you use your taste, nose and eyes with food. What do you do, have a sample sent away to a lab before every meal. Or do you have someone to taste it first?

Your suggesting that there are other things like botulism that KILL which are not detectable with the eyes or nose or taste. Can you clarify this fully please?


That's answered by Dibbs above. The majority of people that present with food-poisoning were completely unaware at the time they were poisoned that there was anything wrong with the food. River cottage claim that 3% salt cures the meat. They seem sure about this, although they were also sure about it when they said that 2.2% salt cures the meat. They seem to ignore the fact that every scientific study has shown that you need 8 - 10% salt to cure meat. In the context of salami, it is the ability of salt to reduce the water activity of the meat, rather than any ability to cure the meat, that adds the most to making a safe product.

I am going to try without starter cultures, also without a little old fridge with fans in it, without PH meters, without a science kit, without humidifiers, without heaters, without coolers. I will be using SALT and CURE #1 or #2. And yes I might not get it right first time or any time like that, if I ain’t got the right conditions to cure, then I simply cannot cure.


How you choose to make your salami is your own choice. All we were trying to do is give you, or point you to, the necessary information to allow you to make your decisions based on scientific knowledge.

We we also tell you what we would do. Whether you use that information is up to you. If you choose to tackle the least likely, but admittedly most dangerous, bacteria that causes botulism, but ignore the others that are statistically far more likely to make you ill, then so be it. That's your choice.

It's like riding a motorbike off-road, there are many ways to make it safer: helmet, back-protector, gloves, leathers, boots etc. How many of these you choose to wear is up to you. You can ride safely without any, but don't tell me that each one doesn't make it a little bit safer...

...and that's how it is with salami.

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Re: Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby Fingers » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:25 pm

Dibbs wrote:
Fingers wrote:
wheels wrote:Your suggesting that there are other things like botulism that KILL which are not detectable with the eyes or nose or taste. Can you clarify this fully please?


e. coli, listeria, salmonella, campylobacter for starters.


One starter culture will prevent all these?
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Re: Fermenting stage of curing sausage?

Postby wheels » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:28 pm

It's not the culture that makes it safe. It's the changes in pH that it creates that makes the meat safe. That's not saying that you can't make those changes happen without culture, just that it's easier and more certain with.

As I said before, the main way the salami is made safe by a mixture of reducing the pH (Increasing acidity) or reducing the Aw (Water activity - the water available to react with bacteria). Either of these things can be sufficient on its own, but that's very difficult to achieve. A mixture of both, along with cure, gives the home-curer lacking in professional skills and equipment the best chance of producing a quality product that's safe.

Some things that help to make salami safe are quite simple, such curing at fridge temps and then knowing that Staph. aureus multiplies rapidly above 15.6°C so that, after fermentation, drying temps below this temp are safest.

You may find this interesting:

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage ... ty-hurdles

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