Response from your web Guy

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Response from your web Guy

Postby Oddley » Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:23 pm

I received this e:mail today from your tech bloke. This is a very polite e:mail from this chap. I am sorry Franco I was under the mistaken impression that the site I am building would have been linked from the forum and not your shop site. As the sausage making gear was of secondary importance. I was primarily doing it for the forum.

I can see what the tech is saying the frames sometimes get linked from search engines and the frame is displayed leaving the user unable to navigate. I had minimised this risk by having little or no content in the frames and no title.

I could write CSS which is Cascading Style Sheets and is only html it's no big deal. I don't really think I can let my work become an addendum to his instead of a forum project participated in by forum members. It sort of has become a commercial project with all the ego that goes with it.

I'm sure that your tech guy/admin will write the site for you if none of the members will do it. I had a lot of fun writing it. It's been a while since I wrote a site.

munki-boy wrote:Hi Oddley,

I am Andy, designer and administrator of the sausagemaking.org site. Franco
has asked me to advise you, regarding the proposed recipe database project
that he is undertaking with you.

Having looked briefly at the posts on the forum with Franco today, I have
noticed some points that would be undesirable. I hope to save you time and
energy and also to maximise future compatibility with the site.

Firstly, I would ask that you do not use frames, the site at present uses no
frames. Also, Franco and I would prefer to not use the proposed Javascript
cascading menu. Please take no offence at my comments as I am looking at
this entirely objectively.

The site uses cgi for the shopping cart, which to a great extent currently
hinders my current design ethic, which is to strive for pure XHTML and CSS.
I keep to the rules wherever reasonably possible. With this in mind I am
hoping you will agree to change your plans somewhat.

The area that is a vertical white rectangle that forms the centre area of
the pages on the sausage site, would be where the recipe links would be
displayed. If you could design fairly simple content to go there it would
be great. The PDF files can then open in their own window. If you aren't
used to working with CSS you can send me an image of you're design and I
will build the necessary layout, which you could then insert your code into.


We intend to re-design the site many times to keep it fresh, we are in fact
planning to re-design early 2005. With CSS, we can easily port the new
colour scheme to your database area.
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Postby munki-boy » Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:07 pm

Hi Oddley and the rest of you sausage lovers,

I am posting this message in the first instance to address Oddley's post. I mailed Oddley privately as I believe some of my comments in the mail could have been construed as critical of Odlley's work. This is not the case and I wish to apologize for any offense caused.

With regard to the Forum/Shop Site issue, the main pupose of the recipe section was to deliver useful recipes to a wide audience. The sausagemaking forum, although already popular and growing quickly; is visited by only a fraction of the number of users who visit the sagemaking home page. The home page also links to the shop area, and the Forum. Placing the recipe section in the site home page area would provide easier access to more people. Surely this can be considered valid by all?

Contrary to Oddley's post I was hoping to contribute to HIS work, merely by providing a coding format that would be most compatible with the other areas of the site, including the forum (also styled using CSS).

While I am writing this I feel I would also like to address a few technical points from Oddley's post, purely from technical interest.

CSS is not HTML, it is a seperate entity with it's own syntax and structure. CSS can be used to define the style of an HTML document for instance. CSS is providing your browser with the colours and font of the page you are reading right now. The point of CSS is that it seperates Style from Content, this is a very good thing for web designers and for web browsers. Use of valid XHTML and CSS provides websites that can be more accurately viewed by all kinds of browsers. It's compatibility for more people I'm getting at.

My reasons for not using frames to construct web pages are many, most of them technical and boring. My main reason for not using frames is that "Screen Readers" - software that 'reads' the text of a web page for the visually impaired - has major problems with them. It is a real problem, and I feel that it needs

to be addressed at all costs. Having worked for a couple of years to provide 'accessible' computer equipment and content for the visually impaired I understand the vital role that accessible websites can play in peoples lives. If any of you would be surprised that visually impaired people, or people with other disablility would be interested in making sausages; don't be!

Thanks for reading, enjoy the site.

andy

http://www.munki-boy.co.uk
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Postby Oddley » Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:30 pm

Thank you munki-boy I have read both your E:Mail and post. There are a few comments that I don't quite understand and that seem to contradict each other. Please would you clarify them for me.
Munki-boy wrote:With regard to the Forum/Shop Site issue, the main pupose of the recipe section was to deliver useful recipes to a wide audience. The sausagemaking forum, although already popular and growing quickly; is visited by only a fraction of the number of users who visit the sagemaking home page. The home page also links to the shop area, and the Forum. Placing the recipe section in the site home page area would provide easier access to more people. Surely this can be considered valid by all?

I have said nowhere that I would not be in favour of a link from the shop to the Recipe website. As long as there is one from the forum and it is a complete entity of it's own. After all the forum members are providing the formatting work on the recipes as well as well as providing the recipes themselves.

Munki-boy wrote:Contrary to Oddley's post I was hoping to contribute to HIS work, merely by providing a coding format that would be most compatible with the other areas of the site, including the forum (also styled using CSS).

Munki-boy E:Mail wrote:The area that is a vertical white rectangle that forms the centre area of
the pages on the sausage site, would be where the recipe links would be
displayed. If you could design fairly simple content to go there it would
be great. The PDF files can then open in their own window. If you aren't
used to working with CSS you can send me an image of you're design and I
will build the necessary layout, which you could then insert your code into.

It seems plain to me that you want to surround my pages with your own, as is the case with the recipes on the shop site now. This is not acceptable. as it would seem to be an integral part of the shop and not a forum project.
Munki-boy wrote:While I am writing this I feel I would also like to address a few technical points from Oddley's post, purely from technical interest.

CSS is not HTML, it is a seperate entity with it's own syntax and structure. CSS can be used to define the style of an HTML document for instance. CSS is providing your browser with the colours and font of the page you are reading right now. The point of CSS is that it seperates Style from Content, this is a very good thing for web designers and for web browsers. Use of valid XHTML and CSS provides websites that can be more accurately viewed by all kinds of browsers. It's compatibility for more people I'm getting at.

Yes you are right CSS is a style scripting language as xhtml is just the latest version of html. But lets get it straight it's not brain surgery and not the holy grail of Internet compatible languages.
www.w3.org wrote:1. What is XHTML?
XHTML is a family of current and future document types and modules that reproduce, subset, and extend HTML 4 [HTML4].

http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-CSS2-19980512/
www.w3.org wrote:Abstract
This specification defines Cascading Style Sheets, level 2 (CSS2). CSS2 is a style sheet language that allows authors and users to attach style (e.g., fonts, spacing, and aural cues) to structured documents (e.g., HTML documents and XML applications). By separating the presentation style of documents from the content of documents, CSS2 simplifies Web authoring and site maintenance.

http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xhtml1-20020801/#xhtml
Munki-boy wrote:My main reason for not using frames is that "Screen Readers" - software that 'reads' the text of a web page for the visually impaired - has major problems with them. It is a real problem, and I feel that it needs

to be addressed at all costs. Having worked for a couple of years to provide 'accessible' computer equipment and content for the visually impaired I understand the vital role that accessible websites can play in peoples lives. If any of you would be surprised that visually impaired people, or people with other disablility would be interested in making sausages; don't be!


While I would love everybody to see all my work. you know as well as I do Cascading Style Sheets only work from IE 3 upwards so if 95% of the worlds population use IE3 upwards millions of users including the visually impaired won't be able to use the shop site including recipes page. If you are so concerned with the disabled in this country and especially in the third world why are you not using other languages and methods to make the sites accessible to this large audience could it be the profit motive? I wonder!

I would on a stand alone site, change my design to a none frame format say using tables. But no css we don't want to exclude anyone do we?
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What is the matter Oddley?

Postby munki-boy » Sat Jan 01, 2005 9:45 pm

Hello Again,

To clarify your points, hopefully in order:

I do not see any division between shop and forum as you seem to do. Is this a feeling shared by other forum users? I see a site where members of the public are able to access various meat processing content. Be that purchasing equipment or seeking advice. I can only guess at your reasoning, the recipes would not be 'for sale' on the website.

With regard to the 'you want to surround my pages with your own' comment, I want to integrate the recipes into the site; yes. Just as this forum is a part of the sausagemaking site. You mention links from here to there, the forum, store, home page and everything are of course all in exactly the same place on the web server. They are inherently, of the same site. Sausagemaking.org is a business that provides a place for interested people to communicate. Do you dislike the business part of sausagemaking.org for some reason?

XHTML is not the latest version of HTML, it is a seperate entity, intended to bring together HTML and XML code structures. At the moment it is the closest thing to the Holy Grail of web design we have. It is the preferred current/future browser standard for all the big browsers, and therefore I suppose all browsers that wish to survive.

With regard to:

"you know as well as I do Cascading Style Sheets only work from IE 3 upwards so if 95% of the worlds population use IE3 upwards millions of users including the visually impaired won't be able to use the shop site including recipes page. "

I would like to see you find a PC running Pre IE 3 outside of your bedroom Oddley. Pre IE3 doesn't support frames either does it...

"If you are so concerned with the disabled in this country and especially in the third world why are you not using other languages and methods to make the sites accessible to this large audience could it be the profit motive? I wonder!"

Although I have seen some deprived areas in my beloved country, I would hestitate to call them Third World. What is the profit motive Oddley? Do you mean that I expect to get paid to work on my clients' websites'? Of course I do, don't you have a 'day' job?


As there has been no interest in this thread from other forum members I will leave it there. I posted my original response for the interest of other forum users and I see no gain in continuing this silliness with Oddley. If other forum members where to get involved then I would be happy to communicate with them here.

with apologies to readers for this unpleasentness,

andy
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Postby aris » Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:03 pm

I think the misconception lies in the question about the status Forum. Is it an extension of sausagemaking.org - the commercial entity & online shop - or is it a community forum?

My guess would be the former - i'm sure Franco would be none too happy to see advertising from 3rd parties competing with him on this forum.
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Postby boslow » Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:39 pm

Reading through this I have to say that Oddley is trying to offer his assistance "free" to contribute to something he beleives would be by the forum for the forum, well done Oddley. Munki boy is a paid web designer who probably makes a good living and content and ethics are not of interest. I say leave him to it Oddley. It appears his main argument is lack of people clicking through from his designed web site to this forum, this is easily resolved, change the web site.
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Aris, on target as usual

Postby munki-boy » Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:59 pm

Yes Aris,

I would agree, after all even the hosting for this webspace must be paid for. Sausagemaking.org funds the forum and forum users often use the shop. While this balance exists, Franco can host the forum and we can post stuff.

In fairness, Franco loves sausages and I know the forum is much more to him than a commercial tool.

I just get the impression that Oddley has some issue with that. He often mentions commercial/financial aspects. Am I missing something? The site seems to be popular and I'm happy to be part of it. You will note that I have ammended several parts of the site/shop as a response to the valuable comments of yourself and other kind forum users.

Boslow, again, for the "forum by the forum"? Why not by anyone with a valid contribution to make, for anyone with internet access?

I agree; well done Oddley! We are discussing (perhaps in the wrong place) the semantics of web design. Not Oddley's contribution, I respect Oddley and his right to speak his mind!

You are personally insulting me with your statement that content and ethics are of no interest. I am determined to create a different kind of company where things do matter! The content and the way it is presented are everything.

I don't eat sausage (GASP!) but I have become almost an expert, because the content matters.

andy
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Postby boslow » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:15 pm

but my point is you are doing this for profit (as a company Director I understand and believe in this) where as Oddley is doing it for the benefit of others and having read the original post for help with the recipe section I was as I am sure Oddley was under the impression that this was for the forum. Incidently since the forum is open to everyone who has a valid contribution and of course internet access I dont get your point.
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Postby boslow » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:18 pm

Oddley, My wife is looking over my shoulder and wants to know why you have a video of me dancing next to your name?
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Postby boslow » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:27 pm

Munki-Boy

Having read my posts I have a question for you that I am sure you will have a simple answear to, why if this is a UK forum are all the times 1 hour out? (40 mins actually)
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Postby Oddley » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:30 pm

Hello Munki-boy

To take your last point first.

Munki-boy wrote:with apologies to readers for this unpleasentness,

There in my opinion has been no unpleasantness, this on my part has been a discussion. I thought that is what forum meant in Latin. If I have personally Insulted you that was not my intention.
Munki-boy wrote:I do not see any division between shop and forum as you seem to do. Is this a feeling shared by other forum users? I see a site where members of the public are able to access various meat processing content. Be that purchasing equipment or seeking advice. I can only guess at your reasoning, the recipes would not be 'for sale' on the website.

As I have not taken a poll I have no idea how the rest of the members feel on this subject. But I can tell you that the post has had 50 views up to now so that shows some interest. Yes I do see a difference between shop and forum the reason being. The shop is there as a purely commercial enterprise you would not expect the members to actively try to sell Francos products. As you have said yourself you have been paid to promote his products. The forum is in my opinion basically a community of like minded people communicating for no profit. I have not said the recipes would be sold. But they would be an advertising tool. They are donated free and therefore are sold in a fashion or is advertising free.
Munki-boy wrote:With regard to the 'you want to surround my pages with your own' comment, I want to integrate the recipes into the site; yes. Just as this forum is a part of the sausagemaking site.

As far as I can see to surround my pages with yours means the same as integrate or are you saying you won't surround my pages?
Munki-boy wrote:You mention links from here to there, the forum, store, home page and everything are of course all in exactly the same place on the web server. They are inherently, of the same site. Sausagemaking.org is a business that provides a place for interested people to communicate. Do you dislike the business part of sausagemaking.org for some reason?

So what you are saying for example is because Yahoo or AOL provide web space they are not really individual web sites with there own content and interests provided by individuals. With that reasoning we could say sausage org really belongs to the host that is providing server web space for this site. I have nothing at all against Sausagemaking.org, business or shop it provides good products at a good price I am a customer myself.
Munki-boy wrote:XHTML is not the latest version of HTML, it is a seperate entity, intended to bring together HTML and XML code structures. At the moment it is the closest thing to the Holy Grail of web design we have. It is the preferred current/future browser standard for all the big browsers, and therefore I suppose all browsers that wish to survive.

I refer you to my previous post or is not www.w3.org not the governing body
http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xhtml1-20020801/#xhtml
Munki-boy wrote:Although I have seen some deprived areas in my beloved country, I would hestitate to call them Third World. What is the profit motive Oddley? Do you mean that I expect to get paid to work on my clients' websites'? Of course I do, don't you have a 'day' job?

Oddley wrote:While I would love everybody to see all my work. you know as well as I do Cascading Style Sheets only work from IE 3 upwards so if 95% of the worlds population use IE3 upwards millions of users including the visually impaired won't be able to use the shop site including recipes page. If you are so concerned with the disabled in this country and especially in the third world why are you not using other languages and methods to make the sites accessible to this large audience could it be the profit motive? I wonder!

As you can see I have not referred to this country in any sense as third world. But are you only interested in this country. As this site is a business I see this attitude as the explanation of profit motive.

aris you have yourself provided many links to other forums sites in your posts Allied kenco for instance. If I felt I could not express my feelings on this site I would no longer remain a member here.


boslow.LOL...:)
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My only point seems to be to answer you

Postby munki-boy » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:36 pm

When whoever finishes creating this proposed collection of recipes and it needs to be put online with the rest of the site I get paid anyway. I have no need to tout for extra work. I am doing my job, I have been asked to ensure that the proposed addition to the site is of a compatible standard.

As stated previously my intention was to communicate privately with Oddley, so that his work could be added to the site. That is part of what I am hired to do. As he pasted my personal email to him into the forum I felt I should respond, in the forum. I also felt I should respond to inaccuracies posted about HTML, XHTML and CSS. So that anyone coming across this thread would not be mis-informed.

As you can read in my mail to Oddley above, I intended only to interface his content with the site in a compatible manner.

Why is that wrong? and how would that affect the content, as you say provided by the forum users.

andy
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Postby Fatman » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:40 pm

Sorry Guys

As a forum user I find it distasteful to see all this jargon speak, would you please keep it private.

Regards

Fatman
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Re: Response from your web Guy

Postby boslow » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:50 pm

Referring to Oddley's original post

[quote="Oddley"][color=indigo]instead of a forum project participated in by forum members. It sort of has become a commercial project with all the ego that goes with it.


I think this proves his point.

and Fatman, sorry, it was not my intention to cause any offence to other users I will now stop on this topic.
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Sorry Oddley, hadn't seen your last post,

Postby munki-boy » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:58 pm

I'm glad there is no unpleasentness, as stated, throughout this discussion I have felt that I somehow caused bad feeling with my initial mail to you.

but:

"So what you are saying for example is because Yahoo or AOL provide web space they are not really individual web sites with there own content and interests provided by individuals. With that reasoning we could say sausage org really belongs to the host that is providing server web space for this site. I have nothing at all against Sausagemaking.org, business or shop it provides good products at a good price I am a customer myself. "

No, I am saying "They are the same website!" I know, because I put it there.

What are 'your pages' Oddley? I see from your image a section for the main content, "surrounded by" the top title bar and grey left column of my design for the sausage site. You have surrounded your pages with the sausage site layout.

With regard to your link to W3C:

"A Reformulation of HTML 4 in XML 1.0" exactly as I said in my post. Nowhere does it state that is a replacement for HTML. The new version of HTML 4 is HTML 4.01 what is your problem?

"As you can see I have not referred to this country in any sense as third world. But are you only interested in this country. As this site is a business I see this attitude as the explanation of profit motive."

Apologies for this, I sarcastically drew attention to a slightly misformed sentence of yours, that was petty. It is a business yes, but that's good, it can afford for us to have this place.

Just because profit is involved, it doesn't neccessarily detract from the site or the content. I love doing the work, my comments here don't really affect my business. I am still here arguing because I care about it.

cheers,

andy
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