Not Really "TRADITIONAL" is it?

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Not Really "TRADITIONAL" is it?

Postby Parson Snows » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:55 pm

First of all I would like to thank Franco for being forthcoming with the information that was requested by myself and numerous other forum members to resolve this �Traditional Dry Cure� bacon quandary.

Having read this information; for the record I would like to state that I totally DISAGREE with this method being called �Traditional� as it is not; and hopefully never will be. By all means call it a �Dry-cure� or whatever you want though it is not traditional. Personally I would be trying to get my customers used to the finer things in life rather than make them settle for second best. Traditional �Dry-cured� bacon is FAR SUPERIOR to other methods� Trust me. Hello � that�s why it costs more, sometimes a LOT more.

The information provided to myself and several other members appears to have been supplied by Lucas/Kerry Foods Ltd. (just my guess). What they cover is a vacuum cure and not a Ziploc bag cure, so the curing times definitely do not apply.

Taking all of the above into account I will be more than happy to comment/add to other topics of interest on this forum however, this is my last input on curing bacon etc. I�m sorry but we have just signed an agreement with one of Cumbria�s biggest (Award winning) Cumberland Sausage manufacturer�s to produce their sausages under license in Thailand. So I don�t have the time for what a lot of people could view/judge as somewhat petty/meaningless arguments.


Kind regards

Parson Snows
Last edited by Parson Snows on Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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arguments

Postby Franco » Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:47 pm

Parson,

You seem to start arguments with your self sometimes :lol: The cure on offer IS a dry cure, the vacuum method is only one of the methods recommended, if you took the time to contact their technical department they would explain this to you.

If it is not a dry cure how then can they sell it as such? They are Britains's biggest butcher's supply company and could not get away with selling it as something it's not.
This dry cure is used by the majority of the independent butchers in England and has won many awards, just because it is made by a large manufacturer doesn't make it evil.

The other cure I offer is a traditional dry cure using and can be used with or without a vacuum, the vacuum speeds things up if required.

The results achieved from ALL my dry cures are excellent as you will see from postings on this forum, HFW's River Cottage forum and other specialist ones.

Not everyone has your expert knowledge in the art of curing and all they ask for is a simple cure that works and gives guaranteed results every time, this is a service I provide and my customers are happy with.

Franco

PS

Have you actually tried any of my dry cured bacon?
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Postby Fatman » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:09 pm

Dear Parsons

With RESPECT I think you may have mis-understood what as been actually said, I am of coarse assuming you are referring to one of my last posts, but please correct me if I am wrong as I have not been contacted over this issue.

Modern Dry Cure = Where the meat as been dry cured in the traditional way and then placed in a Ziploc bag or has been Vacuum packed or even placed in a bin liner sack. This again speeds up the curing process and is still acceptable to be called a Dry Cure. (the method i would reccomend for beginners)


For the record I am in agreeance with the statement that curing bacon inside bags of any kind is not Traditional, however it is an excellent and safer way to cure for todays market place and has been done this way for more than 30 years to my knowledge. I did title that as a Modern Dry Cure.

The company Kerry Foods where Franco buys his stock is not only UK's largest company of its kind but it is probally the worlds largest. Supplying the Charcuterie trade in France is but one of their very small areas of business.

If it is my comments which have brought on your last statement please contact me via a P.M. if you so wish and I will try my best to explain things more clearly.

I am even prepared to contact you via telephone if this would be of benefit.

I am sure of one thing as you come across as being a sensible person, this is a forum where we share our views, right or wrong, we are all entitled to our own opinions, you are a great asset to this site please please chill out have a beer or two and hit us with some more of your experience and knowledge.

Regards

Fatman
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Response to "Traditional"?

Postby Parson Snows » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:08 am

Franco wrote
I've posted the manufacturers dry cure instructions here
http://www.sausagemaking.org/acatalog/dryCure.pdf

If it is not a dry cure how then can they sell it as such? They are Britains's biggest butcher's supply company and could not get away with selling it as something it's not.

If everyone were honest then there would be no need for Customs and Excise Weights and Measures Department, The Food Standards Agency or the Association of Public Analysts - "Working Together to Protect the Public" there motto not mine, etc. Refer to text below.

�Food labelling trick (28/09/2004)
A 'ridiculous' loophole is allowing stores to sell fatty meat as 'super-lean', according to a number of papers, including the DAILY TELEGRAPH. The Food Standards Agency has apparently found that the fat content of beef sold in leading supermarkets was often far higher than the label suggested. Consumer groups have branded it a disgrace, and say similar tricks are used on a range of supposedly low-fat foods.�
Check out this link
Legal loophole over UK packaged meat exposed
http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/news ... phole-over
http://www.the-apa.co.uk/Information/mince.html

More recalls for illegal red food colour
http://foodnavigator.com/news/ng.asp?id ... xjdsdfbypm

Franco wrote
the vacuum method is only one of the methods recommended, if you took the time to contact their technical department they would explain this to you. and just because it is made by a large manufacturer doesn't make it evil.

I am familiar with several of the people at both Kerry Foods and at Wall�s and have never suggested or implied that either of these companies or in fact large manufacturers in general are �evil�. I have always found the technical responses from Wall�s to be both informative and timely.

Franco wrote
The results achieved from ALL my dry cures are excellent � (All my customers) ask for is a simple cure that works and gives guaranteed results every time, this is a service I provide and my customers are happy with.

I have never suggested anything else. I have only suggested that if they used your cures but drained off the liquid then a far superior quality bacon would be produced. Try it yourself first. Weigh the bacon produced from the �Ziploc� method against the bacon from the �bone dry� method. Then fry each up and reweigh the pieces, the results will speak for themselves.

Oddley wrote
Parson these are the instructions for the commercially produced cure. As far as I remember this topic has been discussed before. The consensus being the liquid that has been produced be left in. perhaps Franco would clarify matters as I use this cure I would be very interested in the answer.
WWW.SAUSAGEMAKING,ORG wrote:
Dry cure bacon instructions

Our curing bend is a mixture of salt, sugar, nitrates, and antioxidant. The meat you are using should be weighed before us.

Use 30 grammes of cure per kilo of meat (3%)

1.Rub curing mixture in well and ensure particular attention to pockets and cavities. 2. Seal the meat in a Ziploc bag and store in the fridge, turning every 2 days.

3.When the meat is cured rinse it well and leave to dry uncovered in the fridge overnight.

The meat requires a day per half inch to cure ie a 2 inch belly would require 4 days to cure and a 3 inch loin would take 6 days to cure.
Important.
Gloves should be worn when handling the cure to avoid cross
contamination from nitrites.
Clean all surfaces and utensils with a proprietary cleaner that have
come into contact with the cure.

As I can no longer find this on the web site I assume that http://www.sausagemaking.org/acatalog/dryCure.pdf now takes it�s place (if not, then the text above needs to be revised for numerous items, most importantly the curing times). If so then I recommend that you get in touch with Kerry Foods and obtain the curing times that would be applicable for a �Ziploc� bag method, as a longer duration/curing time will; at least in my opinion; probably be needed against that of a �vacuum� method. I am of course basing this on the fact that not everyone has a vacuum packer though they would still like to make their own bacon. Assuming that you are now purchasing �Easicure� from Kerry Foods, then the members of this forum are back to square one, as to the amount of Nitrite included in this particular cure.

Franco asked
Have you actually tried any of my dry cured bacon?

No I haven�t. I purchase �Prague Powder #1� locally in 25 kilo boxes and blend our own dry cure mixes.

Fatman wrote
With RESPECT I think you may have mis-understood what has been actually said, I am of coarse assuming you are referring to one of my last posts, but please correct me if I am wrong as I have not been contacted over this issue.
If it is my comments which have brought on your last statement please contact me via a P.M. if you so wish and I will try my best to explain things more clearly.

I assure you that it was nothing that you posted.

Fatman wrote
For the record I am in agreeance with the statement that curing bacon inside bags of any kind is not Traditional, however it is an excellent and safer way to cure for todays market place and has been done this way for more than 30 years to my knowledge.

I am not disputing the merits of the �Ziploc� bag method, my comments were directed at the fact that if you�re going to the bother of making your own bacon then why not make the best, as it takes approximately the same amount of time.

END OF STORY
Kind regards

Parson Snows
Last edited by Parson Snows on Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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And food enough for five... Amen
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Postby Fatman » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:52 am

Parsons

Well that seems to have cleared the air !!

Welcome Back (just kidding)

May I take the liberty of now asking the Moderators to delete this thread and any other similar threads before users think this is a site to come and have a blazing row.

Many Thank's

Regards

Fatman
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Postby deb » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:55 am

Parson, you seem to have a real problem with this Ziploc bag thing. I don't dispute any of your opinions about the result in comparison with the "traditional dry cure" method, I've not tried either so cannot comment on the differences in quality of the bacon produced.
To me, one of the main points to remember in all this is that most of the forum members, myself included, are inexperienced as far as curing is concerned. Most will buy Franco's cures and use them as recommended as this is the only way open to them. The only dry cure method recipe I have seen is the Hugh F-W one which produces the salty type of bacon. Perhaps if you were to supply a dry cure recipe with instructions as to how it should be used people would then have a choice between the Ziploc method using the ready made cures and your traditional dry cure method. I for one would be interested in making a traditional dry cure bacon.
Thanks.

ETA. I seem to have been in the midst of posting this when Fatman asked for this thread to be removed. PLEASE leave it until Parson has had a chance to respond to this message. Thanks.
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Postby aris » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:38 pm

Don't have a vacuum packer? Use 5 or 6 layers of cling-film. It comes pretty close.
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No vacuum still

Postby Parson Snows » Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:47 pm

Aris wrote
Don't have a vacuum packer? Use 5 or 6 layers of cling-film. It comes pretty close.

You will still have to use longer curing times than listed/stated in the link "Guide to Dry Curing Bacon : Click here to download our step-to-step guide" as the pork will still be at atmospheric pressure and not under a vacuum. The vaccum basically draws/encourages the cure into the meat therefore without it the meat will take longer to cure.

kind regards

Parson Snows
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Blazing Row or Active Discussion

Postby Parson Snows » Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:11 pm

Fatman wrote
May I take the liberty of now asking the Moderators to delete this thread and any other similar threads before users think this is a site to come and have a blazing row.

deb wrote
I seem to have been in the midst of posting this when Fatman asked for this thread to be removed. PLEASE leave it until Parson has had a chance to respond to this message. Thanks.

My response, if one's really needed
Coming from the East End of London, and having grown up in pubs, I wouldn't even classify this as a heated discussion, no tones were raised, no offending language used, and no insults levied. All in all, I personally; and everyone's entitled to my opinion; think that this was within the mission of this forum ie. active discussion. If Franco or the moderators disagree and want to delete this, and other like threads then so be it. I'll not be offended in the slightess. In future I can always PM those such as Fatman and Oddley that I know are interested. But then is this sharing info? I'm not forcing anyone to do anything I'm just offering FREE advice generally backed up or able to be backed up.

kind regards

Parson Snows
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And food enough for five... Amen
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Postby deb » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:02 am

deb wrote
Quote:
I seem to have been in the midst of posting this when Fatman asked for this thread to be removed. PLEASE leave it until Parson has had a chance to respond to this message. Thanks.

Sorry Parson you seem to have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. The message I was refering to was mine asking about the dry cure not Fatmans.
If there's any chance of you responding with a recipe I would be grateful.
Thanks.
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Postby Parson Snows » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:19 am

deb wrote
Sorry Parson you seem to have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. The message I was refering to was mine asking about the dry cure not Fatmans.
If there's any chance of you responding with a recipe I would be grateful.

All things aside my other response still stands.

As to your question, as I have stated in several other places for this forum. I am at present working on a complete section on this, including cure, calculations and recommended methods etc. and will post it all when complete. I really don't want to do it piece meal fashion, and I would like to cover both UK/EU and US standards.

kind regards

Parson Snows
Heavenly Father Bless us
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There's ten around the table
And food enough for five... Amen
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