Just Visited HFWs Forum

[Oddley]

As the title suggests I've had a look at HFWs forum. It seems to me that they have a very lapsidaisycal (not a real word I know) attitude with bacon curing and are willing to slap it on at any excuse.

As I see Franco and Twoscoops over there has anyone bothered to warn them of the dangers. It's a wonder one of them hasn't killed themselves or perhaps they have just one less poster. Good job you don't sell saltpetre to just anyone Franco.

[aris]

What is the URL?

[Oddley]

http://forum.rivercottage.net/

Mind you I got a good recipe for Bresaola from Franco on there. What baffles me is why he doesn't post that sort of thing on here. After all it is his forum and might create some interest here.

EDIT: This is from what seemed one of the experts on the HFW forum

Using the same cure as bacon,
1k salt, 1/2K demerara sugar, and a heaped teaspoon of saltpetre. (Hugh uses only 100g of sugar, but I found this far too salty then)

Rub the cure in everywhere, in all the nooks and crannies, especially where the bone has been taken out and massage the joint well.

Put into a plastic box / bag /container and put in the fridge. Leave for a week, pouring off liquid.
Take out and re rub with more mix. Put in fridge for another week.
Repeat again for a third week.

At the end of three weeks it is done.

I now soak this joint for 24 - 48 hours in clean, cold water, frequently changed to leech some of the salt flavour.

[TobyB]

An alternative interpretation is that just maybe everyone on here is a bit anally retentive about nitrate/nitrite levels and that we should all chill out a bit?

Not saying that's necessarily the case but, as has been said many times, saltpetre has been used for thousands of years and you don't hear too many stories about the historic poisoning of thousands of people as a result of over dosage......... just a thought?

[Oddley]

Thanks for your opinion TobyB. If I thought for one minute you knew what you were talking about I would of course take some notice. But as you seem to be a member of the teaspoon and hope brigade I won't.

I have spent a considerable amount of time ensuring I know enough not to poison my family and friends. If you don't want to take notice of any warnings given by me and others then there is nothing I can do or say.

This won't stop me trying to warn other people the dangers involved in using chemicals.

As for being anally retentive I am not sure what that means. Is it not an American buzz word that people that have nothing to say roll out to fill in the gaps in their knowledge.

[Parson Snows]

For those of you who are interested it is exactly for this purpose that in the UK and most of Europe PURE NITRITES are not allowed to be sold to the general public. They CAN ONLY be sold in "Pre-mixed" Curing Salt mixtures (typically coloured - generally pink - to avoid confusion with common table salt) as if these are inadvertently used in excess they would rely on the salt content having made the item unpalatable, and therefore not eaten indirectly safeguarding the consumer.

kind regards

Parson Snows

[TobyB]

Oddley you need to calm down a bit otherwise it's your blood pressure that'll be killing you not the saltpetre.

I was simply pointing out the other reality for you although your totally blinkered self-righteousness seems to make this impossible for you to appreciate.

Thank you for your comments on my knowledge. Unlike you I'm in the process of finding out as much as I can on the subject with an OPEN mind. As a very highly qualified professional, educated to a high postgraduate level, I'm sure my knowledge will be up to speed soon. In the meantime I would ask you politely, not to be rude. It isn't necessary and was not called for.

[Oddley]

TobyB I didn't know I was being rude just expressing my opinion as you expressed yours.

What gives you the idea that I am not a graduate myself.

Are you going to share the newly acquired knowledge with the rest of the forum?

As for the rest of the post. ' LOL'

[Parson Snows]

TobyB wrote

I used to work as a chef so tend not to be a great follower of recipes AND
As a very highly qualified professional, educated to a high postgraduate level, I'm sure my knowledge will be up to speed soon.

As you were/are a chef you will be aware of physics, such as making mayonnaise etc. (my father was a chef, now deceased, and I am a qualified cook, though that's not my present job)
Let�s look at this from a different point of view
1) Though beer has been made for at least the last 4,500 years (recorded in Egypt 2 500 BC), the yeast was wild/airborne yeast therefore every batch of beer varied somewhat in strength and taste. Today things are different; from their head brewery in Copenhagen, Denmark Carlsberg send a yeast starter (once a month) to all of their breweries throughout the world. This is to ensure that the beer tastes the same; or taking into account local water, mineral content etc.; at least very similar.

2) Nitrates, regardless of there purity, have to be converted/reduced to nitrites by bacteria/microorganisms such as Micrococcus spp. present on the meat or poultry in order to start the curing process. However, the amount of nitrate that is reduced/converted to nitrite is dependent upon the amount of these nitrate-reducing bacteria present in addition to several other environmental conditions, such as

� Temperature
� Moisture content
� Salt content and
� pH

With the number of variables involved it is easy to see that the conversion rate and subsequent amount of nitrite that is formed/reduced is at best difficult to predict and/or control. From this you can see that in theory every piece of meat cured could/probably will be different. With the use of nitrites it is much easier to control the outcome.

Both of the above processes achieve their goals, however, the results vary.
If you browse through this forum you will find lots of old recipes, in today's light these are not safe, and need to be viewed with care. Modern Cure style mixes have only been available since 1936 (some 70 years) so before that Saltpetre was used. We are now a lot more aware of some of the effects of nitrates/nitrites such as cancer etc. (though still not fully understood). You would be foolish not to follow any safety standards etc.

TobyB wrote

In the meantime I would ask you politely, not to be rude

You also wrote

An alternative interpretation is that just maybe everyone on here is a bit anally retentive about nitrate/nitrite levels

let's keep it sensible/professional.. and everyone benefits

Kind regards

Parson Snows

[Platypus]

This post has left me a little concerned, no not about being anally retentive, but about the general concensus that the HFW method is flawed!

I have just finished a batch of bacon prepared to the HFW recipe from "Meat", though I didn't use any saltpetre ('cause I hadn't got any).

Is it just the use of nitrite/nitrates that is of concern or do you think his method is basically wrong?

BTW, I have just grilled a slice or two of my bacon and found it too salty for breakfast use but should be great in a stew!

[Oddley]

Nitrites also inhibit the formation of botulism toxin and contribute to the formation of the flavours that are typical of cured products. However, salt is the primary preservative for cured meats.Complete preservation of meat requires about 17% salt, while country-cured hams, table hams and bacon contain about 5, 2 to 3 and 1.5% salt, respectively. Salt is the most important ingredient and is capable of curing meat in the absence of the other ingredients.

Hope this helps

[Platypus]

Cheers Oddley,

I think I need to do a bit more reading! There is obviously lots of info out there!

[Heather]

Hi,

I've been browsing the forums for a few weeks now as a guest, but have decided to register and post, as I have a lot to learn in my new hobby.

Like Platypus, I too made some bacon using HFW's recipe in his "Meat" book, also without saltpetre as a) I didn't have any, and b) I prefer to have my food chemical-free and make my own spice mixes where possible.

I cured a 1kg pork belly section (cut into 2 pieces) for 5 days, rinsed it and dried it in my biltong box for 2 days, and while it is too salty for fried breakfast bacon, it makes lovely pancetta for cooking.

I have now found the concerns wrt botulism on these forums, and am probably more confused (and worried) than ever. C.Botulinum is an anaerobic bacterium, so I'm unsure of how it would proliferate in a normal atmosphere. Further info I have found suggests that the toxin is denatured by cooking? Any comments welcome!

I will probably err on the side of caution and buy some saltpetre for future use, once I have a kitchen scale capable of the weighing accuracy required.

Also, on HFW's website, he has a recipe for salami and chourizo, neither of which use saltpetre, but he does use powdered acidophilus. Again, comments welcome!

BTW, Aris, do you use saltpetre for your biltong. I didn't, have made my first batch from 2kg topside using a recipe from "The Complete SA Cookbook" (using balsamic vinegar instead of malt) and it was perfect!

[Oddley]

Hello Heather Welcome to the forum.

Believe me when I say I respect your views on using chemicals.

I don't have quite the same views however, I believe that HFW' s bacon is very salty. Salt is a chemical and from what I read will do you more harm that a limited amount of Nitrite/Nitrate, 9/10 of these chemicals in our diet come from vegetables.

You are quite right what you say about Clostridium botulinum but it does produce spores which are not particularly heat sensitive. I wouldn't fancy them floating around my body.

I suppose the major danger from Clostridium botulinum Toxin would be in air dried sausage, Ham etc. As a few nanograms of this toxin can kill you I don't think I want to chance it in a bit of undercooked meat.

HFW also does recipes for air dried sausage this is in my opinion is dangerous for the reasons explained above. I don't want to have a go at HFW but as he is a celebrity and has sway over a lot of people these people will make his stuff without knowing the dangers. This is where I disagree with him. Below is two links which I hope you will find useful.

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap2.html

http://www.askthemeatman.com/how_and_wh ... itrite.htm

[aris]

Hi,

No I don't use saltpetre at all. Saying that - I made a batch of Droewors (dried sausage) this weekend and put some cure #2 in for the first time. We'll see how it comes out.

In general Saltpetre is not really used by home curers as it is a very pure nitrate and difficult to measure out in the correct/safe quantities.

Generally speaking you should use the "Prague" cures - #1 and #2. You can find more details on them on this forum and can buy them from the main page of this website - http://www.sausagemaking.org/

The Prague cures are diluted in salt, and it makes it much easier to measure the required amounts.