Kippers...

Postby jenny_haddow » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:10 am

Wohoki,
I'm going to start doing a bit of hot smoking soon in the barbecue (I have that great duck breast recipe you posted in mind).
I can usually find fresh herrings on the fish counters of the supermarkets, but actual fish mongers seem to have disappeared. Fresh herring is a wonderful fish for flavour and delicate texture, we eat them a lot. I'm happy to eat them on the bone, but Himself gets a bit irate with the bones so I fillet them and a quick dip in oatmeal and in the pan, divine with fresh bread.
Anyway, smoking is my next project, I've save all the apple and cherry tree prunings to put through the shredder for wood smoke. I'm assuming they will produce a good aromatic smoke. I've got some oak logs so I might sacrifice one in this cause also.
I shall continue with the kippers, especially now I know they have to be cut down the back!

Jen
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Postby Wohoki » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:45 am

I suspect that hot smoked herring would be pretty tasty as well.



(The thing I miss most about not having access to good fresh fish is herring milt: I'd choose it as part of my last meal on earth.)
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Postby pokerpete » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:05 pm

saucisson wrote:
pokerpete wrote:Oh dear, I seem to have inadvertanty ruffled a few feathers.


Actually, I was thinking the same thing about you.

We were having a quiet chat about how we can approximate a kipper from a fresh herring in the solitude of our own fridges and you stamped all over us quoting colourings and E numbers.

And as for:

"bastardisation in the name of corporate cost and profitabilility etc. "

What has any of your last post got to do with 2 or 3 herring and a bit of homecure?

Dave


No need to jump up and down in your pram about E numbers.
The truth is Brown FK and Quinoline Yellow are considered a health hazard.
The use of Brown FK is banned in the EU, except the UK. Also Australia, Austria, Canada, Finland, Ireland, Japan, Norway, Sweden, and the USA have banned its use.
Quinoline Yellow is banned in Australia, Japan, Norway, and the USA, but not here.
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Postby tristar » Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:05 am

No need to jump up and down in your pram about E numbers.


Pokerpete,

Why do you always have to be so supercilious and condescending in your replies to people in this forum. It seems that you cannot post without making snide remarks.
We have many people on this forum with vastly differing levels of experience and more importantly different idea of what they wish to gain from this forum, the most important thing is that we have a place where we can come and discuss ideas, and gain experience without feeling in some way disadvantaged because most of us are not food professionals. We are just ordinary people who share an interest in this hobby and wish to learn and share our knowledge however limited that may be!
I for one am quite happy to benefit from your obvious experience in the industry on a profesional level, as I am sure most of the others on this forum are, but please try to join in the dialogue rather than be confrontational.

Regards,
Richard
Last edited by tristar on Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wohoki » Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:09 am

Hear Hear.
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Postby pokerpete » Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:20 pm

tristar wrote:
No need to jump up and down in your pram about E numbers.


Pokerpete,

Why do you always have to be so supercilious and condescending in your replies to people in this forum. It seems that you cannot post without making snide remarks.
We have many people on this forum with vastly differing levels of experience and more importantly different idea of what they wish to gain from this forum, the most important thing is that we have a place where we can come and discuss ideas, and gain experience without feeling in some way disadvantaged because most of us are not food professionals. We are just ordinary people who share an interest in this hobby and wish to learn and share our knowledge however limited that may be.
I for one am quite happy to benefit from your obviously experience in the industry on a profesional level as I am sure most of the others on this forum are, but please try to join in the dialogue rather than be confrontational.

Regards,
Richard


I had no intention of insulting posters on this forum, and I don't think I have done so.
Cynical, yes, perhaps to parts of the food processing industry, and informative in this case as to the production of the 'alternative' kipper and yellow haddock. And I'll bet that 99% of shoppers think that they are getting the genuine article.
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Postby jpj » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:15 pm

Wohoki wrote:I suspect that hot smoked herring would be pretty tasty as well.


it is, commonly called 'buckling' has its head and guts removed, but roes left in. nice cold or reheated.
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Postby georgebaker » Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:26 pm

Hi
my mother lives at Lowestoft (Boo Hoo) & when I go to see her I try to buy some smoked fish there from a place Rick Stine went to, cant remember the name of the place though I am sure you can find it by asking a local.

They had Bloaters, smoked sparts, what they call Red Herring which seem to be very - very long smoked herring and some other smoked fish as well

George
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Postby Fallow Buck » Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:39 am

I was flicking about on the TV yesterday and UK Food bites or whatever it is called was on.

they were talking about regional produce and things like Melton Mowbray pork pies and Arbroath smokies. The photos of the arbroath smokies they showed was of herrings gutted in the normal way (ie; slitting the belly cavity) rather than the cutting down the back method shown in the photo's of kippers.

If I hadn't of been a visitor here I probably wouldn't have even noticed!!


Anyway my smoked salmon from Ireland that i caught arrived this morning and I have brought a side into work for the guys. Time I went to Tescos for some brown bread and lemons!!!

Rgds,
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Postby dougal » Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:44 am

Fallow Buck wrote:The photos of the arbroath smokies they showed was of herrings gutted in the normal way


"Confusion now hath made his masterpiece"
Shakespeare was writing his scottish play, but he might have been referring to this thread...

If anyone thinks they can make a Kipper without brining or smoking a herring, then they might as well think that an Arbroath Smokie is a herring too. :roll:

An Arbroath Smokie is a fairly lightly smoked *Haddock*. A fish that is really quite unlike a Herring.

A Kipper, to be a Kipper, is a herring, split along the back, gutted, simply brined and then fairly heavily cold smoked. Anything different simply isn't a Kipper.
People don't have to like them.
By all means produce something different. There are already a multiplicity of different curing and smoking styles applied to the selfsame Herring (just read Davidson). There's no need to wrongly apply the name "Kipper" to something that plainly isn't one. Its not 'innovative' - its just wrong. Like thinking an Arbroath Smokie is a herring. Or that a Kipper is slit up the belly.
I'd even agree with Pokerpete that the term "bastardisation" is perfectly appropriate to the passing off of a product coloured and flavoured entirely artificially.

By all means 'do your own thing', and even tell the world about it.
But please can we recognise and draw a distinction between the making of Turkey Twizzlers with 'innovatively' even less turkey, and the skills of producing higher quality food?

Or does this forum exist to promote the use of artificial smoke flavouring, industrial additives like phosphates and 'cake-mix' cookery in general?
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Postby Paul Kribs » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:37 pm

I saw the TV clip and they were definitely referrred to as 'herrings'.. but quite clearly they were 'haddock'.. Pretty poor presenting really, but then I think Food Uncut is a pretty poor program.

Regards, Paul Kribs
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Postby Wohoki » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:52 pm

I actually agree with most of what Dougal says, but for one thing. This site doesn't exist to promote anything. It's a forum for the exchange of ideas, not a "real food" site. If people want to make nasty, emulsified supermarket-style sausages with 40% mechanically recovered meat/60% rusk, in synthetic skins, they have every bit as much right to share their thoughts and ideas as anyone. Less food-fascism please.

You also might want to get your facts straight as well. "A kipper" is any fish that is gutted by spliting it down the spine and preserved by salting and possibly, but not necessarily, smoking. The process was used for hundreds of years in Scotland to preserve salmon before someone tried it with a herring, which used to be gutted via the belly for smoking. The process of kippering allows better brine and smoke penetration to the thicker parts of the fillet and is still used to make smoked salmon, hence smoked salmon is also a kipper.

Incidentally, raw kippered herring makes superb sushi, I had a box sent down from Craster last week, and we had some grilled with bread, butter and hot tea, some I potted, and some I served as sashimi. (Not all at the same time :D , but they were all lovely.)
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Postby pokerpete » Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:39 pm

Wohoki wrote:I actually agree with most of what Dougal says, but for one thing. This site doesn't exist to promote anything. It's a forum for the exchange of ideas, not a "real food" site. If people want to make nasty, emulsified supermarket-style sausages with 40% mechanically recovered meat/60% rusk, in synthetic skins, they have every bit as much right to share their thoughts and ideas as anyone. Less food-fascism please.

You also might want to get your facts straight as well. "A kipper" is any fish that is gutted by spliting it down the spine and preserved by salting and possibly, but not necessarily, smoking. The process was used for hundreds of years in Scotland to preserve salmon before someone tried it with a herring, which used to be gutted via the belly for smoking. The process of kippering allows better brine and smoke penetration to the thicker parts of the fillet and is still used to make smoked salmon, hence smoked salmon is also a kipper.

Incidentally, raw kippered herring makes superb sushi, I had a box sent down from Craster last week, and we had some grilled with bread, butter and hot tea, some I potted, and some I served as sashimi. (Not all at the same time :D , but they were all lovely.)


Point taken, so shortly I'll do a new very nasty cheapo sausage recipe. By the way people wised up to MRM, this has mainly been replaced by a process called Lima. Get ready to vomit.
Someone posted up asking where has all the flare fat gone, I can't remember who it was. Our Orwellian food boffins have been working on it.
More later, so for the moment back to matters piscatorial.
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Postby Wohoki » Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:22 pm

I just Googled "Lima meat recovery". You're not wrong about the need for a bucket. I'd love a down-and-dirty industrial banger recipe if you have the time, Pete. I really like to feel smug.

http://www.kipper.co.uk/

sell real kippered herring, delivered to your door. Not the cheap breakfast that they used to be, but they are a superb, artisan-made product of world class.

If I could get still-twitching herring, fresh from the boat, I would make kippers at home, but I can't, so I buy them. Many of the kippers sold in supermarkets are made by a technique very similar to the salt-and-smoke-powder thing, just like the bright yellow "smoked" haddock that is on offer.

I would recommend that a small amount of the real-deal is better than a lot of the counterfeit option, but it is absolutely a matter of taste.
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Postby dougal » Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:47 pm

Wokoki - I have no wish to cross swords with anyone, but I do find it confrontational to be called names. Without justification.
Wohoki wrote:If people want to make nasty, emulsified supermarket-style sausages with 40% mechanically recovered meat/60% rusk, in synthetic skins, they have every bit as much right to share their thoughts and ideas as anyone. Less food-fascism please.

dougal wrote:By all means 'do your own thing', and even tell the world about it.
But please can we recognise and draw a distinction between the making of Turkey Twizzlers with 'innovatively' even less turkey, and the skills of producing higher quality food?

I'm not sure I see the difference between my "food fascism" and your own.
I note your use of the word "nasty" in reference to "supermarket-style sausages". Surely that is just as perjorative as my posting!
Aren't you calling me names, when we are actually saying pretty much exactly the same thing?



Here's a pedantic reply to pedantry! :lol:
Wohoki wrote:You also might want to get your facts straight as well. "A kipper" is any fish that is gutted by spliting it down the spine and preserved by salting and possibly, but not necessarily, smoking. The process was used for hundreds of years in Scotland to preserve salmon before someone tried it with a herring, which used to be gutted via the belly for smoking.
... hence smoked salmon is also a kipper.
I'll take my facts from Davidson, unless you'd care to provide a more authoritative source.
He clearly states that the name *was* "formerly" applied to Salmon.
Hence, I don't believe that I was in error to state that a Kipper *is* a Herring (whatever it may have been in the past.)

Davidson notes the unreliability of early references to 'kippered salmon' as the word 'kipper' was used to refer to a fish that had spawned, and consequently was spent and, I'd suggest, torpid - linking it with "taking a kip'. It may indeed be that this particular treatment was applied to make spent fish marketable...

However, it would seem that the process was applied to Herring, initially in Northumberland, in the 1840's.
Which brings me to Craster, in Northumberland.
Wohoki wrote:Incidentally, raw kippered herring makes superb sushi, I had a box sent down from Craster last week, and we had some grilled with bread, butter and hot tea, some I potted, and some I served as sashimi. (Not all at the same time :D , but they were all lovely.)

Mrs Grigson, in her book "Good Things", enthuses about the quality of kippers from the Craster family firm of Robson's.
It may not be generally known that Craster Kippers from Robson's, still run on traditional lines by the same family, are available in Waitrose supermarkets.
http://www.waitrose.com/food_drink/wfi/ ... 104038.asp
The sad thing is that the herring that Robson's use no longer come from British fleets. They are sourced from Scandinavia... (according to Rick Stein, who nevertheless approves the product).

Despite that, for a taste of a real, traditional product, at under �5/kg they are a remarkable bargain.
And, I'm delighted to agree with Wohoki, worlds apart from the usual supermarket travesties.
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