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I've just finished cold smoking 2 cod's roes for 30 hours. They were salted for 10 hours and dried overnight before smoking with the CSG.

They've only lost a total of 14 - 15% of their weight, mainly in the salting & drying stages (10 - 11%). Granted the temperature may not be ideal but it seems that others have the same problem - we can get nowhere near the suggested or average weight losses that other trusted sources say should/will be achieved - it's cropped up many times on the forum.

In this case both Erlandson and the Torrey research station say that a 25% weight loss can be expected. With others it's been mainly with smoked salmon.

Can anyone throw any light on it given that weight loss is a safety hurdle in this type of smoking?

Phil

wheels wrote:I've just finished cold smoking 2 cod's roes for 30 hours. They were salted for 10 hours and dried overnight before smoking with the CSG.

They've only lost a total of 14 - 15% of their weight, mainly in the salting & drying stages (10 - 11%). Granted the temperature may not be ideal but it seems that others have the same problem - we can get nowhere near the suggested or average weight losses that other trusted sources say should/will be achieved - it's cropped up many times on the forum.

In this case both Erlandson and the Torrey research station say that a 25% weight loss can be expected. With others it's been mainly with smoked salmon.

Can anyone throw any light on it given that weight loss is a safety hurdle in this type of smoking?

Phil

I put the small loss during smoking of salmon recently down to cool damp air passing through the CSG, although there is a good level of air movement, if the air is relatively damp then in my mind the movement of air across the surface will not pick up moisture from the fish. I guess you could compare it to hanging washing out in the shade on a spring morning compared to a summers morning. I can't find my RH gauge, but it could be an interesting addition to the smoker for a couple of batches.

As to whether the drop is safe, I dunno, my salmon reached 14% after smoking, but quickly hit 20% loss after a night in the dry atmosphere of a fridge while it rested. I was surprised how quickly the weight fell off in the fridge, do you leave your roes uncovered after smoking, is 25% a big hurdle to get over even in the fridge?

I meant to also add that I wonder if the fact that these trusted sources are putting their recommendations in to print for all to see maybe brings in a slight safety factor, that although does not spoil the taste, texture of the finish product exists more to keep their nose clean than reduce risk. Youu will never get a building supplies company to give you a recipe for good cement/mortar, they apparently can't take the risk....

This weekend I smoked 4.7 kgs of salmon fillet (two big ones) for 24 hours @ 18-28 C (no reading of RH). I used 300 grams Maldon sea salt and cured for 48 hours @ 0-2 C. Weight after smoking was 4.3 kgs, or 8.5 % loss.

The gyulai sausage I smoked at the same time lost 15% weight.

I will let the salmon rest for two days in the fridge and then weigh it again.

What's the problem? It tastes great, so..?

Richierich
The Torrey research station was a government concern, so their findings were published. I'm not sure that it's a safety factor in the case of cod's roe they just say that it's the 'expected' weight loss.

Grisell
The weight loss contributes to the safety of what is, esentially, a raw product. Hence it's importance - targets for salmon are around 15 - 18%.

Phil

Phil, I'v posted several times on similar issues and worried about becoming a bore this is mainly because of the lack of a scientific model for curing/smoking.

I think you are asking 2 questions. Why don't I achieve the same weight loss as quoted in books/papers? Is the lower weight loss safe?

The answer to the former is you aren't smoking for long enough or at a high enough temperature or with dry air or any combination of the above.

The answer to the latter is probably yes but not as safe as achieving the higher weight loss. Whether it makes any difference, particularly with our access to refrigeration, is difficult to answer.

My own gut feeling is that the figures are based on empirical evidence from traditional smokeries, and that these have stood the test of time therefore modern industrial kiln smoke ovens have been designed to emulate traditional smokeries.

Maybe we need to change our visualisation from 'hurdles' which implies a fixed value, to something a bit more woolly. Although thinking about it, old fashioned hurdles probably were a bit woolly at the top rather than fences which are more solid, maybe hurdles is the right visualisation

I think you're probably right Tony. It never ceases to amaze me how little information is available. The Torrey figures will almost certainly be based on the use of the kiln designed by them - The Torrey Kiln - most modern smoking kilns are based on their design. They don't actually say that it's necessary for safety - it's other sources that say this. Of course it was very cold overnight when I smoked the roe, so I guess that will be one of the reasons.

I'm not worried about it as such, but it's useful to know what weight loss others achieve as a benchmark.

Phil

wheels wrote:Richierich
The Torrey research station was a government concern, so their findings were published. I'm not sure that it's a safety factor in the case of cod's roe they just say that it's the 'expected' weight loss.

Grisell
The weight loss contributes to the safety of what is, esentially, a raw product. Hence it's importance - targets for salmon are around 15 - 18%.

Phil

Ok, then my recipe is different. Mine is like the vac-packed Norwegian in thin slices (but better of course). I treat it like a fresh product. It keeps for well more than a week in the fridge, after that I freeze it. It'd be interesting to know how salmon would be with that little water left. Won't it get hard? Or is that the goal? How much salt do you use? Do you use nitrite also?

BTW, has anyone heard anything about risks with parasites after cold-smoking? Is there any risk with bred salmon?

So yours is like gravadlax?

No nitrite, just salt, I'm not sure but I don't think that nitrite is allowed in smoked salmon in this country (commercial salmon that is).

Wild salmon in this country needs to be frozen before use raw - even when smoked. Farmed salmon doesn't:

http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/ ... isakis.pdf

http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/enfs07032.pdf

That is, unless there have been recent changes that aren't on the UK Food Standards Agency website yet.

Phil

Thanks for the info. Here is how mine looks:





That fillet weighed 2.6 kgs and cost about 40 euro. Considering that good-quality smoked salmon is 50-60 euro/kg sliced, this really pays off.

Grisell

That looks good, will you share the recipe/method please.

Phil

By all means - tomorrow! Thanks for the compliment.

Wrong forum? Here we deal with weight gain.

Nice one...