Ham Questions

[Oddley]

It all looks good to me, But the proof is in the taste.

[Smokin in Korea]

Cheers Oddley,
Do you agree to let it sit in the fridge for 2 days prior to cooking?

[Oddley]

Yes.

[dougal]

It looks like a ****ing enormous lump of pig to me...

I don't have Oddley's practical experience, but injecting 10% and immersion curing seems OTT to me. But I don't have the practical experience.

I noted something today on a pack of "Dutchy Originals" (Prince Charles' brand) "Traditionally cured" organic ham.
They proudly state that it is "traditionally cured" for **4** (yes four) days. Oh and the ingredients declaration showed Nitrite as the preservative.
How old does a "tradition" have to be to become "Traditional", I wonder?
They use Nitrite. I don't think that's been done much in the past, if at all, outside the mass-production food factories, and even in mass production does the "tradition" of using that instead of saltpetre extend beyond 75 years or so?
And I don't think injection/pumping is a long established tradition either. And without pumping, I can't see how the time could be so short. I believe tumbling the meat could also speed up the curing, and doing things under reduced pressure - but it'd be taking the mick to call those traditional.
Anyway, after pumping Oddley's giving it 7 days in brine and two days to equilibrate internally, 9 days total. HRH is "traditionally" done and dusted in half the time... Hmmmmm.



I know that I don't have the practical experience, but would Oddley agree with Mrs Grigson's advice about
- suspending by the hock, and raising the hock out of the poaching water early, so it doesn't overcook. (Personally, I'd guess that this would be most easily accomplished by lowering the water level...) Certainly, its going to be better to avoid the ham touching the hot (hotter than the water) pan.
- and anyway *tasting* the poaching water as it comes up to heat. She says you should ditch it and restart with fresh water if it tastes "excessively salty". I'd say the ham is likely to be more (no way it could be less) salty than the broth. So you are looking for the broth at the *end* to be no saltier than you'd like your soup. So in the early stages if its "distinctly salty", I think it should be changed for fresh. As often as required. (The bigger the poaching vessel, the less this should be a problem - but it could well be a problem with a mere 6 litres for 6kg of boneless meat weight.) My calculated guess is that you probably want at least 2 or three times the ham's weight of poaching water.
From reading my packet labels, I think you want to end up with between 1 and 2% salt in the ham's final weight.

Mrs Grigson waited until she was sure the broth wasn't too salty *before* putting in her veg and herbs. (BTW, the herbs - a "bouquet garni" - so Parsley, Marjoram, Thyme, Rosemary, Bay... whaddya got? )
Once my meat had cooled to about 35C internal, I moved it to a smaller vessel, not least so that I could put all the broth veg and herbs with the ham, and a minimal amount of water, to concentrate their effect - and left them like that overnight in the fridge.
That leg of yours will cool more slowly, and you might have to use a plastic bag to contain it, submerged in a minimum quantity of broth - which will turn to a very delightful jelly.

The cooking wants to be as gentle as possible.
When you grill a steak, you are trying to emphasise the difference between crispy outside and meltingly tender centre.
With ham you are trying to *minimise* that difference. So go very very gently so the outside barely ever gets hotter (80C?) than the middle ends up (70C?). I bought a digital (remote, wired) probe thermometer that reads to 1 degree C. It cost �12.99 in the UK (at Lakeland BTW). I used my old analogue meat thermometer to monitor the water temp.
I think thats a much better way of doing things than trying to judge a time. Although the MAFF graph from the 1940's as reproduced by Mrs Grigson (and with additions by Parson Snows) should give a fair idea of about how long the process is going to take. Note that the internal temp will keep on rising even after it comes off the heat, as the heat continues to spread to the centre - so back off early!
And that the bone will likely act as a thermal conductor - so you want to be measuring in the thickest part of the meat, and something like 2/3 of the distance in from the surface towards the bone.

Sweetening. Not in the broth. Its got to be pretty dilute to bring out the salt. Maybe in the concentrated flavour cooling broth or jelly. But sweet jelly?
I think sweetening would "traditionally" go in the curing brine, whence it can permeate the meat.

The other sweetening process is to bake a glaze, yes honey, apricot jam, etc, after the boiling, cooling and removing the skin.
I know very little about how that can be done without rendering out the ham's fat. Ask others! I want to know about it too! (I've got a suspicion that a blowlamp might be a better tool than an oven - and reduce the internal heating... blame Blumenthal!)
BUT (IMHO) glazing is primarily a presentation thing, rather than for flavour throughout, just producing a flavoursome and attractive crust.

Looks great so far - just take your time and go gently with the cooking.

[Oddley]

I don't have Oddley's practical experience, but injecting 10% and immersion curing seems OTT to me. But I don't have the practical experience.

Butchers use this method, or so I have been told by butchers, who am I to argue.

If the meat has been pumped it has uneven amounts of brine/ pickle in it, so needs at least a few days to equalize. It has also probably not been pumped near the surface, so there is a large amount of meat without brine/pickle. If the meat is immersed it will cure from the outside and the inside, which will speed the cure, whilst being kept bacterially safe. If you remember the hurdle concept of safety has been discussed.

If you have some proof of another method that is as quick and bacterially safe then I would love to see it, as it would be cheaper than the present method. Butchers would be all for that.

I suppose we could do it like the commercial manufacturers and just pump it full then vac pack it.

I didn't learn how to cure to make my stuff the same as commercial manufacturers. I prefer to take a bit more time and make a bit more of an effort to perhaps produce a better product. Or I might as well just go down Tesco's and buy some ham or bacon.

[Smokin in Korea]

Hi Dougal / Oddley,
Your comments are all noted especially in regard to the cooking process (Low and Slow)
I have a Maverick Dual thermometer which enables me to check the internal temp as well the water temp so I should be able to get it bang on the mark
I was wondering whether I should soak the Ham for an hour or 2 prior to cooking to try and help draw the salt out and would appreciate your thoughts on this.
One thing we are blessed with here in Korea is an abundance of different stlyes and ranges of cooking utensils and happened across the MONSTER POT at the local market. I think it is just the trick as it has a supporting plate which keeps the meat suspended 40 mm away from the burner but still gives me enough depth to cover the creature with 50mm of water.

I was thinking about your comment of hanging the leg by the hock prior to reaching temperature Dougal and I was wondering if I would achieve the same result if I just drained the water down to the supporting plate when the internal temp was around 60 and kept it on a low simmer until it reached the final temp.

I am also not to sure whether I should leave it for 1 or 2 days to equalise as I have come home tonight and it looks as though it is ready to cook, or maybe I am getting to eager.
Anyway I appreciate your help and welcome anymore comments you may have.

On parting
To cook a BIG %#$*ing Ham you must have a BIG %#$*ing POT

[dougal]

... I was wondering whether I should soak the Ham for an hour or 2 prior to cooking to try and help draw the salt out and would appreciate your thoughts on this.
....
I was thinking about your comment of hanging the leg by the hock prior to reaching temperature Dougal and I was wondering if I would achieve the same result if I just drained the water down to the supporting plate when the internal temp was around 60 and kept it on a low simmer until it reached the final temp.

I am also not to sure whether I should leave it for 1 or 2 days to equalise ...

The need for pre-soaking is going to depend on the relative volumes of ham and poaching water. The more water, the less pre-soak required.
I don't think its likely to be needed *if* you taste the water for salt and are prepared to regard the first (and maybe second) warmings as 'soaks'. That way, you can be the judge as to whether or not its needed.

If the ham is lying down in the water, I'd suggest keeping it immersed, and to avoid over-cooking the shank by moderating, even more, the poaching temperature. With the water at 75C, none of the meat should exceed 75C no matter how long you poach for. (I'm thinking of steam cooking and the time not being critical as long as its enough, because the food cannot get hotter than the steam.) But this is detail refinement. More important is likely to be stirring the water to keep the temperature as even as possible, top to bottom, side to side, surrounding the meat with an *even* and gentle heat.

The idea of the brining is to *preserve* the meat.
Its supposed to be 'preserved' until you soak/cook down the salt to a palatable level. It'll resist spoilage, even though not fully proof against it.
If you give it overlong to 'equalise', that shouldn't be a problem. The only trouble I'd envisage is holding it in an overly dry atmosphere. And having it near a bowl of water in the fridge should deal with that - but a day or two shouldn't be a problem. Hey if you were smoking the brined ham, you'd be drying it rather more...

I know you'll be absolutely desperate to taste it once its cooked, but it should benefit from a bit of 'equalisation' after cooking too.
I'm going to try and put some comments together re Oddley's last post, too, however, life is calling...

[Smokin in Korea]

Hi Oddley / Dougal,
Well the Bohemmoth (Ham) is in the pot and I have it wired for both water and meat temp, it is fully immersed in water and has a covering of about 30mm.
The pot holds 42ltrs of water so I am thinking that saltiness should not be an issue and that I will not have to change the water during the cooking process unless you think otherwise. I am also thinking of keeping the water around the 70c mark and take it out when it reaches an internal temp of +/- 60c as I understand it wil keep on cooking but for how long I don't know.
I will check the internal temp of the hock occasionly and if it seem to be reaching the temp faster then I will suspend it out of the water.
I shall keep you posted and feel free to add your comments.

[dougal]

...The pot holds 42ltrs of water ...

I am also thinking of keeping the water around the 70c mark and take it out when it reaches an internal temp of +/- 60c as I understand it wil keep on cooking but for how long I don't know.
I will check the internal temp of the hock occasionly and if it seem to be reaching the temp faster then I will suspend it out of the water....

Just FWIW (not much necessarily!) water 7x the meat sounds to me like over salty is pretty unlikely.

Also, you'll be discovering just how slowly the temperature changes with that sort of mass - total almost 50 kg!

I really can't see you over-cooking the hock too seriously. Worry more about the bulk of the meat - the hock is a minor consideration.

Beware over spiking it with the temperature probe - my (single) hole didn't 'heal up' - and you probably don't want something like a swiss cheese, so as far as possible, get it in a good place and leave it there!

Temperature continuing to rise. Think of a 'wave' of heat moving through the meat. Even after you've stopped pumping heat in, the wave will keep on moving. It can't get higher than the highest temperature that the outside has seen.
The idea of low and slow is so that the heating is pretty damn even.
My *guess* is that holding the water at 75C (ish) and shutting off the heat when it hits 65 is going to see it finish in the low 70's. (remember the outside is going to be, or have been, at 75...)
There's an official US microbiological 'kill' threshold somewhere about 72C but plenty of people cook (including roasting) their bits of pig to rather lower temperatures than 72C
I was slightly surprised that my little ham went as high as it did - and yet certainly didn't seem over-cooked. Centrally it only touched that briefly, the outside must have seen 80-ish for the best part of an hour - it wasn't over-cooked. As long as its pretty even, I think there's a fair latitude working at these low temps.

I'd wait at least until the core temperature actually hits your target, or peaks, before actively helping the cooling. In that interim just leave it "off the heat".

The cooling is going to be much slower for the big beast in the big pot.
75C is too hot to handle by hand...
Could you do the final cooling in the curing pot?
If so, I'd remove some of the broth, the veg and herbs to the (*clean*) curing pot, (and remove any more broth you might keep - 42 litres, its probably pretty bland), bale out some more (half way down?) then maybe top up the big fella with cold water/ice (and stir) to help get him started cooling - again evenly. As soon as its reasonable, fish out the ham and transfer to join the flavours in the the curing pot. Then chill in that, at least 12 hours, probably better 24. And then you are allowed to taste it... (officially).

And keep us clued up on the details. I want to learn from your experience! What has been harder, and what was easier than you expected?

[Smokin in Korea]

Hi Dougal,
I would hate to be running a marathon with this beast as it would win hands down, it has been in the pot for 5.5hrs now and the internal temp has just hit 60c with a water temp of 77c. The colour, smell and appearance are all fine.
I am recording the process and shall post when finished.

I take onboard you comments about the cooling process.

[dougal]

I take onboard you comments about the cooling process.

Comments? Hopefully helpful, encouraging suggestions more like !!

Mrs Grigson tends to just speak of "letting it cool in its liquid".
IMHO you should impart a bit more flavour (and make better jelly) by cooling it in a small quantity of liquid - and that way it should cool faster too.
Maybe just put some hot broth into the curing pot and shift the beast across as soon as you can handle it? And then leave it overnight at ambient... ???

You shouldn't have to sit up all night with it ! (Unless you want to, of course... )

[Smokin in Korea]

Well it is no 3am and it has finally hit 70c so the blighter is coming out.
More tomorrow or is that today

[Smokin in Korea]

Hi Oddley / Dougal,
Sorry it has taken a while to post my results on my ham experience but I have just got back to Korea after a months vacation.
The ham turned out magnificent with a great taste and excelent colour, I shall post some picks in the next couple of days.

Thanks for allof your assistance as I am sure I could not of done it without your help.

[Hobbitfeet]

Once the ham is cured, boiled sliced, etc, how much shelf life does it have?

[wheels]

From http://www.richardwoodall.com

Because of the dry curing processes most of our products are extremely stable and safe. Although we recommend that you do refrigerate most of them, it is not essential for short periods of time and most will be quite safe at ambient temperatures for a few days. There are some exceptions...

...Boneless or vacuum-packed ham should be kept in the fridge. Once opened it should be removed from the plastic wrapping and wrapped in greaseproof paper. Cooked hams of any kind should always be removed from the plastic wrapper and kept in greaseproof paper or foil in the fridge. Kept in this way a cooked ham should last for about a month.

From River Cottage forum

"If your ham is in the fridge and NOT WRAPPED IN CLINGFILM but stick a butter wrapper on the cut face of the ham, it should keep fpr up to six weeks , and that is straight from the food hall in Harrods"

And, finally, the FDA (USA) opinion:

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Factsheets/Ham/index.asp

Phil