Saveloy Disaster.

[sausagemaker]

Hi Oddley

I am not to sure where we are going with this one now as like Parson stated Savaloys were a way of using up leftover scraps of meat trimmings & sausage.
However if the ones that you are trying to recreate came from a factory then it is possible that they either used a colloid mill or a bowl cutter.
If they came from a butcher then the chances are that if they contained rind it was more likely to have been cooked & minced to about 3mm.

Parson is also right in the fact that making an emulsion at home would be hard to create, however you may be able to make one with your magi mix as this is similar to a bowl cutter except that it is the wrong way round.
If you do try this keep the quantities low to allow for a good fine chop, add ice cube to the mix to help keep the temperature down & allow to set before using in your recipes.
The factories tend to mix it with Soya protein to help absorb more fat & water. at the rate of Rind 5 Water 5 Soya protein 1
You may need to add something like a corn flour to help you in this.

It is also worth noting that this will be sticky & gelatinous but it is probably the only cooked emulsion that would work.
I would not suggest that you make an emulsion with cooked meats as the proteins in this has already been set by the thermal treatment and would therefore not be of any use other than being an expensive filler.

Hope this helps
sausagemaker

[TobyB]

I've got nothing against offal and andouillette (?sp?) is a particular favourite of mine. I just don't like the thought of using all the crud left over once you've made nice things from your pig, reducing them to a fine paste and then stuffing them into a sausage skin.

Having said which, if you ever sort the recipe out I'll happily come and try some if only so you can prove me wrong!

[Oddley]

Hello Sausagemaker. The saveloys I want to make were made in a butchers. I actually saw them being made but as I was only 12 at the time 1962 didn't take much notice.

Yes I agree with the temperature thing that's why in the recipe I've added ice cubes every 30 seconds to try to keep the temperature down.

It's quite successful as the grind started a bit to fine ( was like butter ) that's why I cut the grind time down to try to roughen the texture a bit. The emulsification process does work or at least I have got it to work to my satisfaction.

Thanks for the tip about hot meat I think I will make a flavoured rind emulsification though just to try it out. As I think this was one of the flavours I tasted something like a good stock.

Thanks to all for the advice so far it has helped me to find ideas to try.

TobyB If I find the recipe try it. If you don't like it I have a thick skin and you can take the micky all you like.

[Parson Snows]

Oddley
You wrote

To be honest Parson I think you give the two sausage guys too much credit. I don't think they would know a colloid mill if it jumped up and bit them in the arse.

Colloids don�t bite they grind (actually more like instant liquidise)

You wrote

can a emulsion be made with hot cooked meat?
For instance if I boil up rinds pigs trotters etc then emulsify them hot then cool down the resultant mix can I then add it to the cold emulsification of meats. I think the key is the added stock.

I replied
Yes it can, but saveloys aren't really an emulsion as such.

Sausagemaker wrote

I would not suggest that you make an emulsion with cooked meats as the proteins in this has already been set by the thermal treatment and would therefore not be of any use other than being an expensive filler

Sausagemaker is correct in principal, though as mentioned using rinds, trotters etc. (after slowly boiling them) with this being for a saveloy recipe my comment still stands. If done right, ie. not too much liquid etc. it will result in a meat flavoured gelatin mass that will be used for nothing more than the purpose of a flavoured binder/filler.

You wrote

The saveloys I want to make were made in a butchers. I actually saw them being made but as I was only 12 at the time 1962 didn't take much notice.

Twenty-twenty hindsight is a wonderful thing. From what I remember you live near Marleybone, however in 1962 there wouldn�t have been any small independent butchers with a colloid mill. So it would/could have been a bowl chopper or industrial mincer/grinder. By the way the cooked rinds (cooked closer to 4 hours than 3) were passed through a 5/64 inch plate (though that�s probably not an available size now).

You wrote

TobyB whenever you have a pork pie this is the jelly

This would be the case in some of the quality �traditional establishments� though for mass produced pies these days it�s typically powdered gelatin.

If you check out your Mother�s or Grandmother�s cookbook (depending on your age) you�ll find that a �blancmange� a children�s treat; though rarely seen these days; was set using boiled cow�s heels.

In Kent it was not uncommon for cider makers to start off their cider production with the carcass of a fowl who has seen better days being added to the cider.

Maybe not today with the EU interfering in everything, though in the UK in the past bacon curers would toss a partially cleaned severed pig�s head into a new batch of brine/pickle in order to provide the bacteria available for the cures to work. This often being after the workers have had a game of football with the pig�s head first (trust me).

Sausagemaker wrote

The factories tend to mix it with Soya protein to help absorb more fat & water. at the rate of Rind 5 Water 5 Soya protein 1

If you�re going to do it this way let me know as the rehydration times/periods are important if a stable emulsion is to be achieved. The ratios look about right.

Personally I would suggest that you master the emulsion part first as it�s relatively inexpensive to attempt and you will be able to check the results in a couple of hours. I would also suggest that you use crushed/shaved ice as it works quicker than cubed ice.


Hope that this helps you

Kind regards

Parson Snows

[Bob]

Oddley
You said

I feel somewhat a chickens arse telling you this but I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

I said

PS I hope that you already bought the dog you were talking about.

You previously said

To change the subject I'm yet again trying to make Saveloys tomorrow.
I have thrown away more meat trying to make these things than Bob has thrown down his Beagles throat

You later said

As I said it didn't matter to me because from every disaster I learn important lessons. Like buy a dog

.

If I follow then you're referring to the recipe and not the dog... Correct?

IIRC, here's how it actually went:

Oddley said, "As I said it didn't matter to me because from every disaster I learn important lessons."

It was I who replied, "Like buy a dog."

[Oddley]

Bob it is an in joke which i'm not going to explain. but it has nothing to do with you ( no insult ) or a dog. A little intellectual fun.

Or I hope so or Parson is a chickens arse and I'm barking up the wrong tree.

[Parson Snows]

Well done Oddley..

A little intellectual fun.

I tried to throw you off the scent but you didn't bite.
I was wondering as to who and how long?

kind regards

Parson Snows

[Wal Footrot]

Oddley, I've resurrected this thread to see if you've had any further success with your saveloy experimentation. I am making my own at the moment and have started from scratch as well as using a commercial mix (Lesnie's Formula #1) as a base to add my own seasoning. While results have been mixed, all have been edible and I'm starting to refine the process hopefully to the stage where I can get a consistent product.

The idea of the gelatine works very well with saveloys and I cheat by buying pork brawn from the local delicatessen. It's so mildly flavoured that it doesn't make a huge difference (the subtle hint of garlic is nice) but it certainly gives it the texture required. It also means I can use 85/15% meat to fat with no worries!

Additional seasoning includes nutmeg, mace, white pepper, ginger and coriander. We overdid the coriander a bit in the last recipe giving the cold saveloy a sort of salty taste yet wasn't salt - would this be right? I'll drop it from the next recipe and substitute a bit of cayenne pepper as I like a bit of 'tang' in my smallgoods.

I'm a bit lazy and pressed for time so I let my butcher mince my meat for me. I remince through a finer plate with the mixture to give me the texture I want. I've used pure pork, a 50/50 combination and pure beef. The first two seem to give the best results.

As for the hog casings (which I use) I haven't really had the problem because I always remove the skin before eating. To poach them I put the special food colouring I got from the butchery supplier into water and heat to no more than 80C/175F. When the water reaches that temperature I drop in the saveloys and leave them there on medium heat until the water again reaches that temperature at which point I immediately remove them. This stops the casings from splitting.

I posted a couple of saveloy recipes in another thread - the more basic one is the better recipe IMO. you can find it here

Hope this helps and tell us how you've got on so far.

[Oddley]

Hi wal, I understand your quest, I have suspended mine for the time being, but by accident have come across clues to the perfect saveloy. Weather my perfect saveloy is yours, I don't know.

My perfect texture and method has been discovered Here. Never mind the spices, I think you are on the right track with a favoured stock, in my case I think it is emulsified rind, plus some bacon. I also think a small amount of smoke powder and garlic powder will help the taste, but not so much that you can identify it.

The saveloy I'm trying to recreate, is a late 50's early 60's saveloy, from a particular butchers. This may be an impossible task, but what's the use unless you try.

[Wal Footrot]

I've just made my latest batch of Saveloys and I don't think I can do too much better. Here it is for those who would like to try it.

This is for use with 5kgs of meat - makes about 7.5 to 8 kgs of saveloys.

5 kg (11lbs) of beef and pork (15% fat) mixed and minced through a fine blade. I get my butcher to do this for me. The fat content sounds low but the addition of the pork brawn compensates for any texture problems (dryness, crumbly) though you can increase the fat content if you wish. My savs are moist and well textured.

500gms (just over 1lb) of pork brawn, minced in a food processor. I bought this from the supermarket delicatessen. The seasoning in the brawn really helps to add to the flavour of the saveloy. Just taste to check the salt content and adjust accordingly.

900 gms (4 cups) of flour (or alternative weight of rusk)

1.2L of almost frozen iced water (5 cups) (again this is adjustable)

150 gms (1.5 Tbs) of coarse salt* (adjust according to taste)
8g of mace (1.5 tsp)
6g of nutmeg* (1 tsp)
2g of cinnamon (.5 tsp)
7g of white pepper* (1.5 tsp)
5g of ground coriander* (1 tsp)
2g of cayenne pepper (large pinch) - just enough to give it a bit of aftertaste 'zing'. This is also adjustable
* (ground from whole with a pestle and mortar)

NOTE: In my recipe I have used 8 gms of 'Mountain Pepper' instead of the white pepper and cayenne that I listed. This really makes a subtle but improved taste from the white pepper and it's spicy enough not to require the cayenne. Mountain Pepper. It's available in the UK from Lakeland Ltd and Harvey Nichols if you want to try it.

Method:
Mix Pork brawn and meat together by hand and set back in fridge

Combine flour and seasonings then gradually add water to make a slurry. I use a spoon then a hand held beater to do this - no lumps this way and I know the seasoning is well mixed!

Add the slurry to the meat and mix thoroughly (by hand or mixer)

Put this mixture through the mincer using a fine blade #5 or less. Put in the freezer for at least half an hour.

Stuff into casings and link. Put in refrigerator for 24 hours to bloom - optional.

Put a pot of water on the stove and add red or brown dye. I get mine from the butcher. Bring water temperature up to 80C (175-177F) and add the saveloys, making sure all are fully immersed. This will immediately drop the temperature by 15C degrees. Keep on heating until temperature once again reaches 80C - this should take about 15 - 20 minutes. (15 minutes is a minimum time for poaching IMO if you want a firm texture - which I do.) Remove the saveloys immediately and place somewhere to cool down. If the water gets too hot the skins can burst. Enjoy!!!

[Oddley]

Hi Wal,

Thanks for the recipe.

What casings do you use? I found that when I used natural hogs and simmered them, they went like rubber, and had to suck the meat from them.

[Wal Footrot]

Hi Wal,

Thanks for the recipe.

What casings do you use? I found that when I used natural hogs and simmered them, they went like rubber, and had to suck the meat from them.

I use natural hogs and find that the casings can be eaten but I choose not to do so. After I've cooked (reheated?) the saveloys it's easier to remove the hog casings before eating. Maybe sheep casing would be better - I've never used them so I don't know

[Wal Footrot]

A picture of my savs

[spudeye]

Talk about wanting to lick the screen.
They look great, years ago we used to be able to get ones that had a smoked taste, would these have just had liquid smoke added to the poaching water, they were brownish in colour as well.
regards Spudeye

[Wal Footrot]

Talk about wanting to lick the screen.
They look great, years ago we used to be able to get ones that had a smoked taste, would these have just had liquid smoke added to the poaching water, they were brownish in colour as well.
regards Spudeye

One recipe I've got suggests the use of smoke powder and as you indicated you can get it in liquid form nowadays from your local BBQ store. To get the brown colour is simply a matter of the dye that you use when you poach them (I think it's called Bismarck Brown).

BTW, since those pix were taken I've made major refinements to the recipe with very positive results. However, I've not quite been able to reproduce the savs made at Morse's Quality Butchery in Latrobe, Tasmania. These are the best I've ever had for all the right reasons:

mouthfeel
taste
texture
moistness
low fat content

Peter, the master butcher there has been very helpful. (I live in Queensland I'm not a threat to his business). I'm off to Tassie again on Dec 10 and within an hour of getting off the ferry I'll be knocking on his door for a taste of those delicious savs....and maybe a few more hints. I'm taking some of my own down to him for an honest appraisal.

I'll report back when I get back in mid-January.

And you might be interested in this:

Copied verbatim from Sausage and Small Goods Production (1972)

Saveloys


12 lb lean beef or pork pieces or similar meat
3 lb pork fat
5 lb rusk weighed after soaking and fairly dry
� oz stock seasoning to each lb of meat and fat

Stock Seasoning
19 lb salt
8 lb ground white pepper
6 oz ground ginger
2 oz ground mace
2 oz ground cinnamon

Method
Pass the meat through the fine plate of the mincer and take to the bowl chopper. Add seasoning, rusk, and finally the fat. Fill out into hog casings, but do not link them. Twist them first to the right, and the second to the left, and so on, to prevent them becoming untwisted. Smoke in a warm dense smoke for about half an hour and cook for 15 minutes at a temperature of 175 �F. Alternatively, if the saveloys are not to be smoked, add to the recipe 2 oz. of smoke powder and cook them in a dye.


Pease pudding recipe posted tomorrow

Kind Regards

Parson Snows