Bread Making

[wheels]

LD
The hydration at 500g flour to 325g/ml water is 65%; the same as I use in my 'every day' bread. This shouldn't give a too wet dough if kneaded well/risen/knocked back well and proved as can be seen in the photos here.

The mix that Dave (saucisson) used with 350ml/gm water is 70% - wetter? Yes, but with careful handling, and a good dusting of flour when shaping, won't just spread but will rise nicely - as in the rolls here which have to be shaped to virtually their final width before proving as they hardly expand at all. Johnfb has also made these, perhaps he will let us know whether this was also his experience?

The 500/300 ratio of flour/liquid equates to 60% and I would expect this to be quite a firm dough, that without something like an improver, would be quite a dense/heavy texture. 60% is even less than the 'traditional' 1lb flour to 1/2 pint liquid (approx 63%)!

The best bit of breadmaking advice I was ever given is to knead the dough for twice as long as you think you should!

Hope this helps

Phil

[Oddley]

PS Oddley: The instructions I got call for 500g flour and 300ml (yes, I know ) of tepid (about 20 deg C ) water. Rest the dough for ten minutes then place somewhere warm (40deg C is ideal) to rise. A hot steamy dishwasher after a cycle has finished is recommended.

Hi Dave, the recommended amount of water to bread, is about 58%, at the moment with this 16Kg of flour, I'm using 56%.

With the method I posted, on the first knead in the Kenwood, gives a stiff dough, after the 5 min rest it has softened a bit, after the final 5 min knead and 10 min rest it is soft, but will sit up nicely and not flop.

As I have suggested, I have found that a baking tin full of boiling water, put on the shelf below the dough in a cold oven, will give a good final rise. I can't justify to my old woman, running the dishwasher every time I want to make bread.

[saucisson]

Hi Oddley,

I was quoting from/paraphrasing the instructions that came with the improvers from Kitchen Foods to answer the question you raised (I forgot to point that out )

Thanks for the boiling water tip, I'll try that. I've been putting mine in the oven and trying to set the thermostat at 40, which is a bit random as you might imagine.
Dave

[jenny_haddow]

Forgive me if I am being dense here, but if you make a wetter mix and turn it out for kneading, surely it will take up a lot of flour to create a good dough, thereby altering the water to flour ratio.

[Oddley]

Sorry Dave, my fault.

It says with my current instructions, not from Kitchen Foods, that the improvers work at their optimum with a dough temperature of 29 �C. I'm trying to give the free samples I have, a fair test, so would like to see them work at their optimum.

40 �C is the best temp for the final rise of a dough, and is the temp used by the pro's.

[saucisson]

I have some from the same company that I haven't tried and as you say it says 29 deg. I can send/host the full documentation I got from Kitchen Foods for you if you would like,

Dave

[Oddley]

Thanks Dave, but Kitchen foods kindly sent recipes etc. with the samples. I'll have another look to see if I can see something.

[wheels]

Jenny

It probably does take up slightly more - I sort of try and keep the additional flour on the outside - so to speak!

There is no question, however, that more liquid results in a more open crumb texture: more fat, a softer crumb.

On a 600g flour batch of rolls (12 rolls at the size I make) I would have to add 72g more flour for the hydration to be the same as Oddleys 58% standard, or for my everyday loaf 43g.

Please note that I am not suggesting, for one minute, that anyone should make bread my way or that any other way is not 'correct'. The bread improver method/lower hydration makes a loaf easily and for many people, more importantly, quickly, and will suit most people.

I'm just offering an alternative for those who for whatever reason don't want to go down that route.
Regards

Phil

[Kitchen Foods]

Sorry for the delasy in replying everyone, its been a busy day (word must be spreading!!) also the lots of kids things to do with them finishing school, starting high school etc etc etc!!!
Storage of the improvers is stated at cool, dry, less than 25degC, this normally means a cupboard!!
In use I will paste the actual manufacturers recipe below for basic white tin bread using my farmhouse improver, on the amounts look at the % this is % of your flour weight, I tend to say 60-62% of water for general use as a lot of people use bread machines and this 'slacker mix' allows the mixing paddle to chew into the dough more, also if the dough is too tight it will struggle to rise (yeast won't make concrete rise!!) Remember these are actual bakery recipes so sometimes we have to use our imagination!!!

Flour (Bakers) 100%
farmhouse improver 0.75%
Yeast 3.12%
Salt 2%
Water 55%

> Mix 2 minutes slow speed and 8 minutes fast speed using spiral. Mix into a well developed dough
> Dough temperature: 26�C - 27�C
> Scale and intermediate proof: 8 - 12 minutes
> Final Proof: 45 - 50 minutes
> Proof temperature: 30�C
> Relative humidity: 85% RH
> Bake temperature: 232�C (450�F)
> Bake time: 30 minutes
> Bake with steam

Here's another recipe for wholemeal using the same improver, note how the water and mix time has increased;

Flour (wholemeal) 100%
Farmhouse Improver 2%
Yeast 3.12%
Salt 2%
Water 60%

> Mix 2 minutes slow speed and 10 minutes fast speed using spiral. Mix into a well developed dough
> Dough temperature: 26�C - 27�C
> Scale and intermediate proof: 5 - 10 minutes
> Final Proof: 50 - 55 minutes
> Proof temperature: 30�C
> Relative humidity: 85%
> Bake temperature: 232�C (450�F)
> Bake time: 30 - 35 minutes
> Bake with steam

Have fun experimenting!!!

Cheers
Emma x

p.s. If I get time I'll post a few more recipes soon

[lemonD]

Emma,

Flour (Bakers) 100%
farmhouse improver 0.75%
Yeast 3.12%
Salt 2%
Water 55%

> Mix 2 minutes slow speed and 8 minutes fast speed using spiral. Mix into a well developed dough
> Dough temperature: 26�C - 27�C
> Scale and intermediate proof: 8 - 12 minutes
> Final Proof: 45 - 50 minutes
> Proof temperature: 30�C
> Relative humidity: 85% RH
> Bake temperature: 232�C (450�F)
> Bake time: 30 minutes
> Bake with steam

I did try this using a 12.5% protein flour and it didn't rise very well, next to no oven spring and produced a heavy dense loaf.
Plus the kenwood kicked around like a mule trying to knead it.
So then I started increasing the water 60% first, not so dense crumb but still heavy and the kenwood once again cried a sigh of relieve when i switched it off.
65% was maybe more than it needed, I'll split the difference and see what happens next try.
Phil I agree with you re: wet doughs however the improver method should work with one proof.
Having said all that all the bread I've made so far has been good but not great, if the 65% water one had of been the right shape then that would have been a great loaf.

LD

[johnfb]

Hi All
Not understanding relative humidity and all the other science on the method above, (I guess I am just to lazy to get into it), I have to say that I have used Wheels' bread roll recipe, adding an extra 7gr of yeast and a pinch of sugar, and have made them using the brute method...ie no science just mix by hand, bash and knead by hand, twice, prove and bake...and they have always turned out fluffy, light, brown on top, crispy with the addition of a bit of steam and tastey to boot.
Everyone that has tried them in my home, including non family members have said they are perfect.
I would urge you all to try his recipe, I think it is failsafe (with the extra additions of course.... )

[lemonD]

John,
Yep those rolls are definitely on my tuit list, once I get the loaf sorted.
I'm just off to get a bigger hammer

LD

[georgebaker]

Hi
Morrisons 39 pence for 4x 44 gm yeast cubes

I just used 10gm with 300gm flour for a forcassia which is rising now, done on Dough cycle in the breadmaker. Creamed the yeast with 200gm tepid water before adding to the flour (Tesco strong), salt and oil.

George

[saucisson]

Great find George, but my nearest Morrison's...

27.66 miles

Oh well, if I'm passing I'll know to drop in. Just out of interest, where in the store is it kept?

[Kitchen Foods]

Hi,
Lemon D, I know the manufacturers recipe has a low water content, which is why I recommend more, theirs works using proper bakery mixers, us at home struggle to mix to that intensity, I always worry about recommending too much water as the loaf could collapse, its all about trial and error and remembering what you did when it turns out great!!!
If the dough is too dry or tight the yeast bubbles cannot make it rise, it needs more of a bomb to make it rise!! also the poor old mixer does complain (especially if its a human mixer!!)
By posting the recipes last night I was simply hoping to show people the sort of recipe a bakery would work to, showing the humidity etc etc. The recipes I send out with my products are different and designed for home use by anyone, people can stick to my recipe or simply add my stuff to another recipe, or add extras to my recipe like extra fat, salt, butter, olive oil, etc etc. My mum in law uses the improver in loads of strange bread recipes (dont ask what they are!!) and just chucks a teaspoon in every one.
The fun is in the experimentation!!!