Pauline's Christmas Ham

[NCPaul]

Well, I'll wade into this brine pool - as I tell the boys in the lab, "I'm unencumbered by knowledge". As I've worked the numbers, the brine is at about 20 % NaCl and the meat (after pumping) is at about 2 %, so I do believe salt will move from the brine to the meat to try to restore ionic equilibrium. Water may likely flow in the opposite direction. In the experiment I conducted, with a much smaller piece of lean meat, the meat only gained 3.11 % water after 11 days (and this seemed to be in the outer most portion of the meat judging by the texture). But, as to why the meat does not have an overly salty taste, I offer the following possibilities: In the experiment I performed, the final salt distribution after removing the meat from the brine showed a salt concentration of 4.08 % on a slice from the outer part and 1.66 % from a piece taken from the interior (after 11 days). I would expect that in the case of the "Pauline Ham" (which my wife thinks is somehow vaguely romantic ) that the salt pickup is on the outer most few centimeters. Next, when the ham was cooked, water and salt were driven out of the ham (not sodium nitrite, which had probably already reacted with the meat). I expect that the water in the steam bath would be noticeably salty. I have read that meat can lose 10-15 % of its weight in cooking (even in moist cooking), this would lower the salt content of the overall ham and of the outmost few centimeters by a larger proportion. So, I agree with Oddley that the ham gained salt and I agree with Wheels that it didn't taste salty For Christmas I was given a meat syringe, with which I plan to use to make a ham, so I can hopefully generate some data when I do so. I much prefer to do the experiment, then predict the results (my accuracy goes way up ). If I don't post before the New Year, have a Happy 2010!

[wheels]

That's helpful in one way NCPaul - but if you're correct we have no way of determining the nitrite level based on the salt content and that's the real concern.

Phil

[NCPaul]

I've thought about this some more. Is this right - you wanted to put the correct amount of sodium nitrite into the ham by pumping but then wanted to add more salt but couldn't because you were already pumping a nearly saturated solution? If this is what you were after, I think I would make two solutions; the first would be as you made it and the second would be at the same concentration of sodium nitrite as the ham contained after pumping. This, in theory, would keep the nitrite from going into the ham or leaving from the ham. The salt level could be set high to insure some pickup during a brief brining. It is not a great way to solve the problem in that it would require two seperate brine solutions to be made, one for pumping and a second for a short immersion cure. Is this on the right track?

[quietwatersfarm]

At the risk of being immediately out of my depth in the brine pool, NCPaul, I am interested in the time scales for your tests after removing from the brine, how long was this ham allowed to 'equalise 'prior to your testing? and would this elapsed period not affect result?

On another note (willingly showing my ignorance here ) Wheels, if the meat took on no extra salt after pumping, then the immersion proceedure would serve no purpose would it?

Please excuse my comparative lack of brine cure experience, I only do long term dunk and then 2 weeks of maturing type stuff It is fascinating though, especially after trying the results of the load I did last and the flavours the various brines imparted, so i am keen to learn more.

[wheels]

Thanks both.

The purpose of the soak, which is perfectly normal practice, is to allow a period of time for the injected cure to equalise. I've always felt it necessary with our type of injection brining (using syringes/marinators) which is more haphazard than using a commercial brine pump. There is no doubt some interchange of chemicals during this period, however I do not believe that the amount of these in a 6kg piece of ham can be safely extrapolated from test results on a piece of 1kg.

I guess that there is really no reason for the meat to sit in brine and will try making a ham where it doesn't.

My daughter is picking up some ham from the supermarket that is 1% sodium (as per nutritional info). I believe I am correct in saying that 1% sodium is 2.5% salt. A comparative tasting against this may throw more light on the subject.

Logically, Oddley's calculation/observations should be nearer the truth than what my taste-buds are telling me, perhaps I'm building a resistance to salty tastes.

Phil

[quietwatersfarm]

I guess that their is really no reason for the meat to sit in brine and will try making a ham where it doesn't.

This is interesting - pump only, rather than combination curing?

What period would you then be allowing for equlisation through the meat? and would you leave this air maturing, in the chiller on a rack, or sealed in a vac bag? If the latter what drives the cure to move through the entire product?

Sorry for all the questions, just fascinated

[wheels]

I don't see that it really matters whether it's open or in a vac-pac but my gut feeling is that a vac-pac may be better - we know that there is movement of liquid by vac-packing from our experiences in 'evening out' what would otherwise be 'case hardened' air dried meats using this method.

The cure presumably equalises in the meat by moving through it in the same way as an unpumped brine or dry cure would.

As I say, this will be by way of a trial, I still favour the pump then brine method which as I said is common practice - see Maynard Davies's book for example. It's the uncertainty of calculating this 'pump then dunk' method that deters me slightly. Given that I put recipes online I feel beholden to ensure that they are as safe as possible. Oddley's method, or the use of the FDA methods (pump followed by method 2 brine) at least gives a potential maximum. However, given that the FDA say that Method 2 is only used for small items - Method 1 is for larger ones (something often overlooked on this forum), there would be an element of doubt always in the back of my mind as to whether using these calculations would lead to the use of too little cure which I fear could be the case if my taste buds aren't telling me lies. Of course, using Method 1 in respect of both elements (calculating the brine curing element on the basis of the increase of meat weight over and above the 10% pump) would undoubtedly lead us back to where Oddley and I started this discussion.

The other option, of course, would be to use a pump/dry cure combination where the calculations are easier, but even so, not necessarily as clear cut as they may appear.

Phil

[quietwatersfarm]

I have just taken 12 hams out of their immersion stint (which was 4-5 weeks) and they are on the racks in the chiller equalising.

What is your post brine timescale for finishing the curing process?

[Oddley]

However, given that the FDA say that Method 2 is only used for small items - Method 1 is for larger ones (something often overlooked on this forum)

The number of times you have reminded us of this, we haven't had a chance to forget it...

May I remind you, the FDA book is for commercial companies not for the small amounts of artesian curers. If method two didn't work for large pieces of meat, then quietwatersfarm would be out of business.

I have just taken 12 hams out of their immersion stint (which was 4-5 weeks) and they are on the racks in the chiller equalizing.

wheels, I know it's complicated, but not as complicated as you think. If it was, there would never have been anybody curing bacon.

[wheels]

]


The number of times you have reminded us of this, we haven't had a chance to forget it...

Point taken - but you still choose to ignore the fact.

May I remind you, the FDA book is for commercial companies not for the small amounts of artesian curers. If method two didn't work for large pieces of meat, then quietwatersfarm would be out of business.

Other than the quantity of meat involved I see no difference at all with an immersion cure.

wheels, I know it's complicated, but not as complicated as you think. If it was, there would never have been anybody curing bacon.

See below.

I hope I don't need to do this often, it took me quite a while to raise a mortgage to buy some supermarket ham!

The ham was 2.5% salt:



Five people have done a side by side test so far, my two daughters, their respective boyfriends and my wife.

None of them were aware of this discussion and they were all asked the same simple question - which ham is the saltier.

All five said that the ASDA ham is more salty and 3 of them commented that it is 'a lot saltier'. My own opinion is that the ASDA ham is slightly more salty, but I'm outnumbered.

I'm sorry that this is not the outcome you were expecting - "I know it's complicated, but not as complicated as you think"!

Phil

[Oddley]

Apart from the sarcasm, what you are saying is that, while in the brine your original ham did not pick up 0.5% salt, this is hard to believe and to be honest I don't.

There must be some other explanation for it. I have done lots of salt beef, using exactly the same cure and exactly the same cooking method, (Steamed under pressure) yet sometimes it comes out saltier than others. I have not yet found out why.

[quietwatersfarm]

Wheels, at least you can apparently get your money back if you are not entirely happy (and I hope & trust you are not )

[wheels]

Oddley

My apologies for repeating your patronising comment as sarcasm, it wasn't worthy of me.

You may not think so, but I too am surprised. However, it is exactly what the FDA handbook says will happen. I realise that I am wasting my breath as you don't believe what I and 5 other tasters are saying. I will find out the cost of having the salt level professionally tested, but fear it will be too expensive. I will also see if I can adjust the cure level of this and the tutorial example to be within a safe margin at both levels - yours and mine.

Phil

[Oddley]

I think I will leave this discussion as is. We seem to have come to an impasse, I've had a lot of this discussion before, without hard evidence there is no point.

Happy new year all..

[wheels]

Wheels, at least you can apparently get your money back if you are not entirely happy (and I hope & trust you are not )

I never thought of that! It was carp(sp). I'll send Pauline in with it, she's braver than me!

Phil