Pauline's Christmas Ham

[NCPaul]

I will find out the cost of having the salt level professionally tested, but fear it will be too expensive

Not so much if you ask the right person.

without hard evidence there is no point.

This experiment may take me a bit longer to set up, I've never made a ham before. I may have to talk someone out of a big piece of refrigerator space. Please come to an exact plan (and make it edible ). Happy New Year!

[NCPaul]

Wheels- if you really want to get your ham tested, I would go to your local water treatment facility. They should be able to do this; if they can't, ask them what lab they use for water analysis. You may be able to talk them into a favor (maybe with a ham sandwich ). To prepare your sample, weight out about 10-15 g of ham and blend it in a blender with about 50 g of distilled or deionized water. Weigh both of these to two places if possible. You will need the ratio of meat to water to correct the result. Tell the lab doing the analysis to filter the samples through a 0.1 micron syringe filter. The labs here would do the samples for about the equilvent of 10 pounds. Labs doing water analysis tend to be very automated and charge less than others that don't do the analysis routinely. Or wait for me to make a "Pauline Ham".

[Oddley]

NCPaul, I would be very interested in the results of the experiment. Thanks for taking the time and effort of doing it.

First of all, I would like wheels to clarify his position on method 2 of the FDA formula. Because I don't really understand it.

Perhaps if I explain my position wheels could tell us where he disagrees. Right I think we both agree that if you calculate a pump then all of the pumped brine can be counted as ingoing, apart from a little drip.

This is the tricky part. I say that if then the meat is put in the rest of the brine, then method 2 will take over and the meat will try to equalize with the chemicals in the brine. By the exchange of chemicals if the meat reaches saturation, as the amount of water the meat is able to carry is restricted by the amount of salt in the brine, at a time scale of 9 days per Kg or 11 days per inch of meat.

I've tried to explain my position as clearly as possible .

wheels can you please explain in detail where you think this is wrong, giving examples where necessary.

When we know both sides of the dispute, we can then tailor the experiment to prove or disprove our theory's.

[wheels]

NCPaul

Thanks for your advice I will contact the local laboratory after the holiday. The information about them says:

Leicestershire and Staffordshire Scientific Services is an efficient and reliable scientific service offering testing and analysis, advice and support to customers in the public and private sector.

We have four Public Analysts, thirty-five well-qualified, experienced staff and two laboratories, based in Leicester and Stafford, accredited to UKAS Quality Standard ISO/IEC 17025 which are both Official Food Enforcement Laboratories

They are accredited for nitrite/nitrate testing as well as the normal chemical thingies, but I'm guessing that testing for salt levels will be cheaper?

Funnily enough they are about 300 yards from where I used to work - but I didn't even know they were there!

Oddley

Thank you for you continuing contribution to this problem.

My position on 'Method 2' is that it is for use with small pieces of meat or meat cured fully to equilibrium - pieces of meat that have a large surface area in relation to the weight/thickness of the meat. We know that the method works - NCPaul has shown this with his tests on a 1kg piece of meat.

As to where 'Method 1' takes over? I don't know.

I appreciate that your method of calculation attempts to produce a correlation between the two methods, or at least tries to project the outcome for larger pieces of meat, or meat cured for less time than it takes to reach equilibrium, from Method 2. Whether or not based on NCPaul's research, your model and his are similar.

My point is that if this is a way to do it why did the US scientists come up with Method 1 for calculating larger pieces of meat? Logically you would only need to add a ratio of weight:cure time to the Method 2 equation to cover all eventualities and avoid confusion.

I believe it unlikely that they would have come up with two methods if:

1. Both weren't needed.
2. They didn't both work for the applications they suggest.

As such I believe that their advice...

Method One is used for hams, shoulders, bellies, etc., because it takes weeks for these
large items to reach equilibrium. Method Two is primarily used with small items with large
surface areas such as pigs' ears, tails, snouts, etc.

...should be followed. As long as the meat is very small or very large this seems 'clear cut'.

That's my position on Method 2, but in this case we are pumping the meat, followed by a (short) brining. A standard practice used by curers for years as you explained to Dougal in 2006:

I don't have Oddley's practical experience, but injecting 10% and immersion curing seems OTT to me. But I don't have the practical experience.

Butchers use this method, or so I have been told by butchers, who am I to argue.

If the meat has been pumped it has uneven amounts of brine/ pickle in it, so needs at least a few days to equalize. It has also probably not been pumped near the surface, so there is a large amount of meat without brine/pickle. If the meat is immersed it will cure from the outside and the inside, which will speed the cure, whilst being kept bacterially safe. If you remember the hurdle concept of safety has been discussed.

If you have some proof of another method that is as quick and bacterially safe then I would love to see it, as it would be cheaper than the present method. Butchers would be all for that.

I suppose we could do it like the commercial manufacturers and just pump it full then vac pack it.

I didn't learn how to cure to make my stuff the same as commercial manufacturers. I prefer to take a bit more time and make a bit more of an effort to perhaps produce a better product. Or I might as well just go down Tesco's and buy some ham or bacon.

However, our knowledge of the curing process has moved on since then, but I doubt that the methods used by many butcher's will have. It's somewhat ironic that here we are, a bunch of amateur curers who are more concerned about curing safely than the guys who actually have the opportunity to poison people (gradually) daily!

Right, to this piece of meat, the pump element - we are in agreement about calculating this, other than maybe allowing for 'seepage' it's fairly clear cut. However, The answer may lie here - I'll return to it later.

We then have the immersion element. You contest that the piece of meat will pick up the same amount of salt in one week as it would if the 6kg had been immersion cured and calculated on a 'pro rata Method 2' basis:

As you can see, with just the 10% pump you get 2.0% salt. I did a percentage to equilibrium calc to find that there would be a 1% pickup of salt in 7 days, therefore the total ingoing would be about 3.0% salt.

What I'm saying is that:

1. I haven't a clue as to the proper method of calculation, but I don't believe that anyone else on this forum has a definite answer either.
2. Although your method of calculation is logical (and akin to how I'd have thought it should be done) there is no basis for doing it using Method 2 in the FDA handbook as it is not cured to equilibrium nor can NCPaul's tests on a small piece of meat be safely extrapolated to be used on a piece of 6kg.
3. The immersion cured calculation according to the US advice should be Method 1 not Method 2.
4. The fact that it has 'absorbed' 10% of it's weight in brine already is likely to have some effect on the process.
5. That the ham doesn't taste as if it has 3% salt (subsequently reinforced by taste tests by five people).
6. The time taken to reach equilibrium may be longer than you think. Paul's 1 kg piece wasn't at equilibrium in 11 days, whilst the average salt was very near, the centre was way off being stage where "levels in the tissue and in the pickle are balanced." (FDA definition)

However I accept that when talking in relation to combined curing that the FDA seem to back your position:

In Black Forest Brand Hams that are pumped and then immersed in a cover pickle solution, the limits are the same (200 ppm for nitrite, 700 ppm for nitrate). Therefore, if 200 ppm nitrite is used in the pumping process, no additional nitrite is permitted in the cover pickle. If 350 ppm nitrate (or 50% of that permitted) is added to the pump cure, up to 350 ppm nitrate (the other 50%) is permitted in the cover pickle.

The answer to as to why a ham doesn't behave as expected may lie in how the FDA advise to calculate the % pump/pick-up:

If a drain time is listed in the establishment's approved procedure, allow the pumped/treated product to drain for the specified time period and then weigh. If no drain time is listed, take the weight directly after pumping.

I only weigh before and after curing so don't have a % gain 'after drainage' - but it is apparent that some occurs. Also the weight gain after curing for this method varies between 5% and 9% (from my records) against 10% injected. I accept your premise that much of the loss of injected cure may be water (although we have no evidence, so we may both be wrong). However, it seems impossible that all the injected salt will detach itself from the water and move into the meat. (I guess that the Nitrite will be different due to it's reaction in the meat - that's another issue, but of more concern). This would go some way to explaining why the finished product doesn't perform as you expected it to.

I would stress, I don't claim to know the answer and I certainly don't want this to degenerate further into a petty competition as to who's correct in a discussion that relates to 1% of salt. I'm approaching it with an open, but enquiring/challenging mind.

Anything that progresses our knowledge of how cures work and enables us to calculate them more accurately interests me, I'm really hoping I can find some way of getting tests done cheaply to assist this process. Maybe you could enquire in your area - I would think that it may be a more competitive market where you are?

Phil

[Oddley]

Right, I think I understand your position now. I not interested in what happened in the past, or quoting this or that, because we could discuss this till the cows come home and still disagree.

The first thing that we must agree on, is that after the experiment, that NCPaul has a really nice ham to eat.

So NCPaul it sounds like after cooking there may be about 2% salt according to the tasters, is this too little for your palate, or too much?

Is the 1%, that I say is picked from immersion after pumping enough to clearly show, if my calculations are right, or wrong, or if it proves wheels position.

How often do you purpose to test the salt in the meat?

NCPaul as you are the expert in testing, I think we need your input and advice.

[NCPaul]

If Wheels said this was a tasty ham, I can think of no better authority. I will do as nearly as possible the exact same recipe. I will try to test every day the brine and I will try to take small slices from the exterior. I won't test the interior until the brine period is complete. I plan then to vacuum pack it and give the ham another week before retesting the interior. I doubt I will be short of data.

Funnily enough they are about 300 yards from where I used to work - but I didn't even know they were there!

We are like that.

[johnfb]

Jeez... I'd say all Pauline wanted was a nice slice of ham...

[Oddley]

Sounds like a plan to me NCPaul. Nice one!

[wheels]

I was going to leave further comment/conjecture as to how and why this recipe/method didn't appear to perform as you expected until I have had the chance to (at least try to) get the salt level in the meat tested.

However, you know how it is, you get into bed, put the telly on but aren't really watching or listening to it, it's just background 'company', and your mind wanders off onto 'sausagey', 'hammy' thoughts. Well, mine did and so here I am again. This time to see what you think about this as a possible reason for the difference between the calculated and 'tasted' product.

If we accept the premise that there will be some drainage of the brine pumped into the meat, and that this drainage will not be solely water but will include salt etc, then basing our calculation on 10% injected is not how the FDA advise that it should be done when using their calculation system. They say to use the weight gain after drainage. I feel that it is inevitable that there is some drainage and that this is likely to be more when using 'make-shift' injectors rather than commercial brine pumps.

I don't weigh my ham (say) 1 day after injection but if at this stage the weight gain was only (say) 8.5% it would go part way to explaining the difference as we would be looking then at about 1.66% salt from the injected cure.

Now let's look at the immersion cured element:

If cured to equilibrium this meat would (according to FDA calculation) contain around 7.74% salt from the cure #1 and added salt (or thereabouts).

The meat weighing 6055gm was immersion cured for 7 days, but how far along the road to equilibrium is this?

The only actual tests we have that could give an indication of how long it takes per kg for meat to reach equilibrium are NCPaul's. We know from these that his 1kg of meat hadn't reached equilibrium in 11 days – equilibrium according to FDA calculations being 3.39% salt. His meat (after adjustments for the brine removed for testing) showed a theoretical level (based on the salt left in the brine) of 3.16% and an actual tested level of 2.986%. We also know that much of the salt was in the outside portion of the meat and that to reach equibrium the salt level would need to be equal throughout the meat as the FDA say, "Over time, the ingredients in the pickle, such as nitrite and salt, migrate into the meat, meat by product, and poultry until levels in the tissue and in the pickle are balanced."

So we know that equilibrium takes more than 11 days per kg, but how much more? I know that in my private discussions with NCPaul he felt that it was near equilibrium and I'm loathe to dispute this but assuming that the meat will eventually reach full equilibrium the tests show a drop of 0.11% salt in the brine in each of the 2 days prior to day 11. If the meat continues to move towards equilibrium at this rate (and logic and NCPaul's figures indicate that it will actually slow down) then it will not be reached until day 16 (at even the most conservative estimate) and will probably take longer. I have based these calculations on the higher salt level from calculation rather than the actual measured level in the meat which was lower and in theory would actually take longer to reach equilibrium.

Based on this, the only real prediction we can give is that, for a 1kg piece of meat equilibrium will be reached between 12 and 17 days. If we extrapolate these figure to calculate a piece of meat weighing 6055gm the salt % from the immersion cure will be between 0.53% and 0.75%.

Add this to the 1.66% from the pump and we end up with a range between 2.2% and 2.4% salt in the meat.

Where this leaves us in being able to predict the outcome of recipes is anyone’s guess, but it does go some way to explaining the difference between your prediction and the apparent level of salt from tasting.

Phil

Added:

I wrote this before I saw that NCPaul will do tests - thanks.

It's worth noting that the amount of cure will need adjusting to account for US levels.

I will still try to get mine tested locally so that we have a comparison.

[wheels]

Me again.

Many thanks NCPaul for your kind words. If you want to run tests as you detail to further your own knowledge be my guest, but please don't do them on my behalf. I note your changes to the method - these seem a good idea - I normally leave mine hanging in the air drying fridge for a few days but didn't have time with this one - I do it uncovered to allow the meat to dry a little.

Regrettably you are not closer and could test the piece of cooked meat I have. I would however suggest that you test yours after cooking as at the end of the day that's what the people eat!

Now to the main reason for this post:

Johnfb has reminded me why I did this cure and to be honest I can't be bothered whether it's 3% or 2% or for that matter 50% salt - Pauline and the family prefer it. Like many of my curing and other projects I prefer a more traditional ham but can't be bothered to make things just for myself.
If you like it, good. If you don't, there are plenty of other recipes on here to go at.

I'll bow to Oddley's knowledge and accept that it's 3% to avoid further debate which to be honest is taking me an inordinate amount of time and 'grinding me down'. I suggest that if people reduce the cure #1 to 100gm they will be curing safely regardless.

I will of course let you know if tests prove Oddley's theory - It would be churlish not to.

Phil

[Oddley]

wheels mate, I really don't care about the outcome of the experiment, it means nothing. Please don't make yourself Ill over something as small as this.

If you really don't want NCPaul to proceed then OK. I thought that for me to be right or wrong, it would just progress our knowledge. It is not important enough for somebody to worry about.

After all, this is just supposed to be a bit of fun...

[quietwatersfarm]

I normally leave mine hanging in the air drying fridge for a few days but didn't have time with this one - I do it uncovered to allow the meat to dry a little.

Excuse my lack of knowledge here in what has been a fascinating (if beyond me at times!) discussion.

The bit you mention above Phil, is this not an all important part of the process, especially in air as it is, as the flavour and moisture content is 'properly finished' during this period (we'll thats what I was always taught and we 'rest' the hams here for at least a week )

What I am getting at is that during this 'evaporative' phase would the salinity of the ham not tend to increase as the moisture content drops and has this been factored in to your calcs at all?

Probably nonsense, but do you see where i'm coming from?

[NCPaul]

Wheels - I can not do work with best of them. I will make a ham at some point (if only to use my Christmas present). When I do I will send you my results and you can post them if they have value to the forum members. I do agree that far too much energy has been spent debating what happens during curing and only offered my services to add experimental data.

Please don't make yourself Ill over something as small as this

.

I am in complete agreement with Oddley on this point. I wish we were closer, I would be happy to drink a pint with you anytime.

[quietwatersfarm]

Has this thread reached Equilibrium?

[johnfb]

Has this thread reached Equilibrium?

As I said: I'm sure Pauline just wanted a nice slice of ham....and I'm sure that's what she got.

I asked Phil to come up with a cure blend for me in a PM last year, which he did and the results have been great. Oddley's burgers and Cumberlands are great as is the advice offered by these two guys... it was like clash of the titans there for a while.
I just wish I understood half of what was said, as I said before, that's why I depend on the input from you guys to help out.

It is great that there is such healthy debate on here and that both posters understand that it is all in the best interests of the rest of us...who don't really understand the process.

Thanks to both of you for a lively debate and a wealth of knowledge.

That's why this forum is so great...it's like a family..we can argue and fight at times but in the end we are all here for each other and to help out.


John