Pauline's Christmas Ham

[saucisson]

Wot he sed...

Only I hope it was just healthy debate


Dave

[wheels]

I think I owe everyone an apology - I seem to have inferred that it's making me ill. That is not the case - my country bumpkin constitution is a lot stronger than that. It's more the time to give adequate thought to replies and calculate the large number of permutations of figures to try and cover all possibilities. I am quite happy to continue to discuss the wider theories where these calculations aren't involved.

I'm not suggesting to NCPaul that he doesn't carry out tests to further our knowledge and understanding of immersion curing - just that he shouldn't 'feel obliged' to do so on my account.

I would rather he starts though with a straight immersion cure of a large piece of meat so we can have some test results that tell us more about pure immersion curing rather than combined cures. I believe that this would be of greater benefit.

In due course maybe on another thread at another time:

I would like to see further debate surrounding Method 1 and Method 2. I make no apology for reiterating that if method 2 calculations can be simply applied on a pro rata basis why on earth would the US FDA come up with a completely different method; one that produces results as far away from the other as it would seem possible to get?

I would also like to see further tests regarding seepage and further discussion/research around the time taken to reach true equilibrium.

I would also like to offer this - we pooh, pooh the idea that calculation can be based on pure weight gain of the meat - because of movement of chemicals/water between the brine and meat - but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the US scientists also realised this and allowed for it when devising the calculation equations. It seems to me that if an amateur with no science experience like me can see this that eminent scientists would be unlikely to overlook it.

Many thanks to all the people who have commented and shown interest in this ham. I believe that it is a safe cure - if people are really concerned, reducing the cure #1 to 100gm will make it safe in virtually all the scenarios that Oddley and I have discussed. As they say in the films - the rest of don't amount to 'a hill of beans'.

Phil

[Oddley]

There is of course an alternative. Do the water phase salt content test yourself. If I could be bothered, I would.

Read here to see how it can be done cheaply.

[wheels]

Wow Oddley, your mastery of Google knows no bounds - that's brilliant!

If testing by the lab is too expensive I'll see if my local 'apothecary' can do this for me - he owes me a Christmas pressy for all the money he makes from my prescription supplies! (he doesn't know he does yet; it'll be a nice surprise for him!).

I don't feel 100% confident to do it myself - I have a job telling what colour litmus paper has changed to!

Phil

[captain wassname]

Ive not come to resurect the discussion just a comment on the salt taste test.
I noticed that the shop ham had no sugar in the contents and in the nutrition facts showed 0.1% sugar. Whereas Paulines ham had well over 1% sugar.
I wonder if this would have an effect on how salty one ham would taste against onother.
Jim

[wheels]

How the hell did I overlook that. I'll try the next lot against a more comparable product - I've phoned a couple of labs, the cheapest's £35.10 plus vat for the tests. I've also asked my tame apothecary (pharmacist) but he hasn't the kit to do it - getting the things needed for the test method posted by Oddley isn't as easy as I thought and may even cost as much (but would do a lot more tests) - in any case I don't feel confident to do it accurately myself.

In conversations with NCPaul, I know that he would like to solve 'the riddle of the methods of calculation used by the FDA', and in due course he may make further enquiries/tests.

As far as I'm concerned this really isn't about the salt in this particular ham, answering only that would just be point scoring between two people who both have the same objective - to be able to calculate cures accurately and safely.

Of far greater benefit to us, and other amateur curers who take curing seriously, will be analysis of purely immersion cured meat that leads to us being able to predict outcomes for varying sizes of meat with confidence.

In another area, but related - I will do some trials to try and get a ball-park figure for the possible loss due to seepage in injected meat when using syringes/marination needles.

In due course I will get this recipe tested; not to prove a point, but to be confident that the cure is safe. It'll probably be when I do the next one - it won't be this one 'cos it's started snowing and I ain't going anywhere in this weather!

If any of you keep stats of weight etc before and after curing (or even during) for pumped or immersion cures (or even both combined) I'd be interested in having copies as I'm sure would other members who are interested in these technicalities. (bunch of anoraks that we are )

Phil

[quietwatersfarm]

I'll be more than happy to log the next lot that go in.

Pre Brine weight
Post Brine weight
Post equalisation weight

Would that be about right?

[NCPaul]

I've phoned a couple of labs, the cheapest's £35.10 plus vat for the tests.

By the way, I did mine in duplicate.


quietwatersfarm, we would also need your brine formulation and the total amount of brine used and the total amount of meat going in.

[quietwatersfarm]

quietwatersfarm, we would also need your brine formulation and the total amount of brine used and the total amount of meat going in.

Of course. no problem. I will have a batch going in at the end of this week, for what is normally a three to four week dip.

It is absolutely no problem to do some to others' specific recipes and timescales if this helps (Phil, Oddley?)

[Oddley]

I think phil is trying to prove a theory with weight gain vs brine pickup. I'll leave it to Phil to answer.

I'm not trying to gain any brownie points when I say, I think the weight gain that is trying to be proved is accomplished at the beginning of the cure, by vacuum massaging or pumping.

If phil can prove a link between pickup and time, I will be amazed. On the other hand, I'm always open minded.

[wheels]

Not quite that Oddley - I'm keeping an open mind about the whole thing - I just wonder though, with enough stats if we can identify common factors.

The more information we can collate in one place for our common use the better it seems to me - both for this and any other research people may want to do in the future. I know that at the end of the day we are only doing this for our own personal pride in what we do - I sometimes wonder why we bother, given that many complete cure manufacturers seem not to - you've only got to look at the two recent ones highlighted on here - Scobies by you, and Supracure by Johnfb.

However, in theory similar pieces of meat may show common traits in weight changes as they progress towards equilibrium. I am very doubtful though, as I know that the weight gain (from raw) at the end of curing of meat injected at 10% can vary between 5% and 9% from my own records. This is why I want to test seepage in injected cures - it may be that we need to take this more into account in injection curing. The FDA certainly believe that there's also a link between pick-up and level of cure in large pieces of immersion cured meat. I'm hoping that immersion cured meat may show less fluctuation than injected and that there is some correlation between pick-up and level of cure (although I have doubts) but I totally agree; "If phil can prove a link between pickup and time, I will be (also be) amazed" .

A further concern is that in all of this we seem reliant on calculating the levels of nitrite/nitrate based on salt levels. However, I am very sceptical about the supposition that nitrite binds with the meat in the same way and at the same rate as salt. We know that it is a 'volatile' substance and reacts readily, so take up may differ. Then in the case of nitrate - well, how much reacts is anyone's guess?

Sorry, I'm rambling - just expressing thoughts going around in my head - not cohesive propositions. Also, given that the FDA say in respect of equilibrium curing: "This system is actually very complex and dynamic, with components in constant motion, but it will reach and maintain a state of equilibrium", I doubt that many, if any, of our simplistic solutions get anywhere near the reality of what happens.

Phil

[wheels]

By the way, I did mine in duplicate. .

Go on Paul, cheer me up!

I don't know much about this, but these people are the public analysists used by trading standards when monitoring compliance to the law/regulations by producers. They will work with a sample of between 100gm and 200gm so that it's representative and the inference was that they test the whole amount.

Given that they are done by the same method as those where the results could be used in court would they not have to be fairly accurate?

Phil

[captain wassname]

Im a bit miffed that apart from Phil I have had no acknowledgement to my last post other than a continuation of a seemingly pointless argument.
So I feel more than entitled to my say.
@ NCPaul
After a discussion with Phil I adopted a pump and different brine solution (for a small piece of meat)
Ive said the bit about sugar(may have been right)
Im not interested in what Phil is trying to prove but am willing to donate half his testing fees
As for the rest of the discussion I think it belongs on the other thread.

Jim

[Oddley]

captain wassname, If you want recognition on this forum then if you bring up an intelligent answer then people will slap their head and say that is obvious, as there are intelligent people on here two a penny.

If you do it on another forum, you would be a hero...

Not suggesting you go to another forum. we need you here.

[wheels]

Hold up a bit lads, perhaps it's time to end this.

Mod hat off - Oddley what captain wassname said about the ASDA ham was intelligent as are his comment on other threads about curing - he often sees clearly what many others can't; you may already have realised the information he posted but not posted to keep the peace, but I'd completely overlooked it .

Cap'n - it'a very kind offer but the test cost is insignificant so I'll decline with thanks.

Mod hat on - I value both your contributions to this but it's getting not nice please cool it. We all have the same aim so there's no need for animosity.

Maybe it's time to lock this off and have seperate threads about the different aspects of it when further information is forthcoming.

However, as one of the the major protagonists, I'm going to duck that decision and leave to my fellow mods/admin to decide.

Phil