Pauline's Christmas Ham

[wallie]

In my post I forgot to mention that the pickle barrel was started at the begining of the trip and the ships I sailed on (BP Tankers) the trip normaly lasted 9 month.
Thats how long the brine lasted as well.

wallie

[wheels]

Maynard Davies details the use of a brine tub - but of course he was using saltpetre rather than nitrite. He also says to have it professionally tested monthly. It's also interesting to note that many of his immersion recipes use short cure times - 14 days for a whole ham - followed by a long period of hanging.

It would be very difficult to calculate using method 2 with this type of curing as the calculation is based on the total weight of meat in the pickle during the curing period.

John

So you cure the joints of pork together, but not in an established brine tub with a fixed volume of pickle - you calculate the volume of brine individually for each batch?

Phil

[quietwatersfarm]

So you cure the joints of pork together, but not in an established brine tub with a fixed volume of pickle - you calculate the volume of brine individually for each batch?

Yes we mix up the brines fresh for each batch based on the ingoing weight of the meat.

Is there a better way? if so please explain

In love the way Maynard often mixes really detailed information on some aspects with things like 'you'll know when its ready with experience'

[wheels]

Do you know, I've no idea if there's a better way! I know from my conversations with the production manager (now retired) for a large producer of quality hams that they didn't. Regrettably, the farm shop where I used to see him (he acts as a consultant to a number of farm shops) has now closed.

Like many others, I have some ideas, but at present I want to do some work on seepage in injection curing and pursue further the length of time taken for meat to reach equilibrium, issues raised earlier by me on this thread. If anyone has thoughts about these issues, but don't feel confident to express them publicly, then please feel free to PM me.

I am also intrigued by research which as shown that at equilibrium the water holding capacity of pork increases and that its water holding capacity increases the higher the brine concentration (added: up to a point when it reverses); this is contrary to many other foods. I guess what we're all trying to find out between us is a simpler method of calculating this type of cure.

Maynard's book is superb as a reference document but must be very frustrating for people new to curing. Funnily enough, although a traditionalist, he was very much in favour of combined pump plus dry cure or immersion curing.

Many thanks for the chilli - I've PM'd you.

Phil

[quietwatersfarm]

Maynard's book is superb as a reference document but must be very frustrating for people new to curing. Funnily enough, although a traditionalist, he was very much in favour of combined pump plus dry cure or immersion curing.

If I remember correctly doesnt he also profess to have had success at pumping and then dry curing!

[Oddley]

Not sure how good it is to have conversations by Pm. If conducted in private then the rest of the forum does not get to see any evidence, after all this is an open forum.

quietwatersfarm, I have tried all the methods mentioned, they all work well. Some take a little longer than others.

wheels you should have said you was doing some work on WHC, I've had this info for years.

[quietwatersfarm]

Thanks Oddley,

Out of interest is there a point where you would draw the line at a maximum brining time?

[wheels]

In general I agree, but the offer's there.

I'm sure that members will find that extract of Graiver's research interesting.

If anyone wants to read further the full document is here:

http://www.aseanfood.info/Articles/11016527.pdf

It's not the specific one I was looking at but is referenced in many works.

Phil

[Oddley]

In general I agree, but the offer's there.

I'm sorry I don't understand.

I'm terribly sorry I didn't post the article you were looking for. :roll:

quietwatersfarm, I've not really thought about it. Being a small producer, I calculate 1 piece of meat at a time, so don't really let it go much longer. leaving meat in a brine for too long, I don't think would enhance the meat flavour any, so I don't think I would do it out of choice.

[quietwatersfarm]

I asked becuase a while ago someone asked about brine curing a monster of a ham and I was wondering whether there was a point at which one would simply take too long to cure?

[saucisson]

In general I agree, but the offer's there.

[color=indigo]I'm sorry I don't understand.

My reading of the above:

"He (Wheels) agrees that it is best to keep discussions in the open, but if people wanted to discuss anything about the process in private (because they feel too tentative to post things they are not sure of in public) the offer was there for them to discuss it by that route. " I presume Phil meant he could then talk them through it and subsequently get it up on the forum, rather than have the information/question lost because someone didn't want to ask...

There seems to be a misunderstanding here, so if either of you want a private chat by PM you know where to find me (in confidence obviously).

I'm am off to bed just now though. Too much sledging in the snow is wearing me out.

Dave

[captain wassname]

wallie How long before you started to take meat out of the barrel?
Jim

[wheels]

Thanks you Dave, my sole aim was to allow people who may otherwise not want to post their data to have a way of contributing. This could be because of a number of things - commercial confidence or the fact they may think that their data may be critised. The intention being to present it anonymously for all.

I posted the link to the document purely so that others may read it - a document I already have as if you're looking at these issues you 'trip over' Graiver's research regularly.

I don't want to post more new thoughts on this thread at this stage. I have done some number juggling relating to 'equilibrium time' based on NCPaul's research but am hesitant to post them. I'll think it through further and maybe send them to NCPaul so that they can have a scientific eye ran over them.

I don't deny that others may be correct in their extension of Method 1 to apply to all sizes of meat, and to include meat prior to equilibrium, but can't help returning to what I said previously; If it's that simple why did the FDA need to come up with two methods? Surely their scientists can't be that thick that they failed to notice what others of our members feel is staring them in the face?

I also believe that they didn't just sit there and invent Method 1 'off the top of their heads'; they must have had some basis - presumably research - that it was calculated from.

That said, it would be great to see the system of calculation from Method 2 proved conclusively to work with all sizes of meat - it would make calculations much simpler!

Phil

[captain wassname]

QWF
Have you started your experiment yet?

Jim.

[wallie]

Jim
We used to give big legs of pork about 3 weeks then an overnight soak before cooking.
Ox Tongues about a week.

Memory is not too good these days I had to refer back to my well worn bible "The Nautical Cookery Book for Stewards and Cooks of Cargo Vessels"
Price 4 shillings and six pence!

Also I forgot to mention in my post that we used to reboil the brine every couple of months.

wallie