What is the MINIMUM cold smoke temperature inside smoker ?

[grisell]

Hi Ryan,

What you have just said about cooking and or smoking over pine wood has been said a number of times on this forum and others, but "Black Forest Hams" which are the highest volume sold of any ham in Europe are smoked over pine! and they have none of the bitterness ascribed by others to foods smoked or cooked over pine.

Black Forest hams are smoked over spruce wood, not pine, as far as I know.

[wheels]

The Association of the Black Forest Ham Manufacturers website's not specific but says that fir sawdust and needles are used. It does not mention spruce specifically.

Where's your info from?

Phil

[grisell]

The Association of the Black Forest Ham Manufacturers website's not specific but says that fir sawdust and needles are used. It does not mention spruce specifically.

Where's your info from?

Phil

German Wikipedia...

[wheels]

Grisell, I don't speak German so don't take what I wrote as gospel it may be that they use both. However, I looked up the German for spruce tree and it's different to the German words for fir that are mentioned on the website I linked to.

I think that one of the two pdf documents link to at the bottom of this webpage may give an answer but can't read them:

http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/quality ... tionId=650

Could you take a look please (assuming that you speak German that is).

Phil

[tristar]

André speaks not only his native Swedish, but also English, German, Italian, Russian and Polish. Some Czech, Hungarian, Finnish, French, Spanish and Greek.

I wouldn't be suprised if he doesn't know a few phrases in Klingon as well!

A smart cookie!

[wheels]

Oh boy there's one big joke in that last post about linguistics and being clever. Too rude for here though.

[grisell]

Grisell, I don't speak German so don't take what I wrote as gospel it may be that they use both. However, I looked up the German for spruce tree and it's different to the German words for fir that are mentioned on the website I linked to.

I think that one of the two pdf documents link to at the bottom of this webpage may give an answer but can't read them:

http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/quality ... tionId=650

Could you take a look please (assuming that you speak German that is).

Phil

Yes, it says 'Tannenhölzer' which means wood from any species of the genus Abies (commonly referred to as spruce or fir). Pine is of a different genus, Pinus (In German Pine is called Waldkiefer). The situation is complicated by the fact that there is no one-to-one correspondence between names of trees in different languages.

A little confusing maybe, but I think this video explains quite well where 'Tannenhölzer' comes from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvdGO-14 ... re=related

[wheels]

The glossary I looked at has Spruce as die Fichte. Norway Spruce as die Rottanne, and fir as you have already said.

So where does that leave us? In your opinion is the registration application saying fir, spruce, a combination of both, or what?

Phil

[grisell]

My source is German Wikipedia. Under Tannenholz (singular of Tannenhölzer) it says: "Als Tannenholz wird das Holz der Tannen (Gattung Abies) bezeichnet, ---", i.e. "Tannenholz is the designation of wood from Tannen (species Abies)". You can also look at the pictures here http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannen . It's quite clear that it is spruce and not pine.

The document you linked to says Tannenhölzer, i.e. spruce wood.

Later tonight I will translate the whole section for you guys as it is quite detailed.

[wheels]

Ah, I see now, I was misunderstanding what you said. Thanks.

Phil

[grisell]

Here is my translation of the most interesting part of the document about that Black Forest Ham. Excuse my English. I hope it is understandable. One usually translates to one's native language:

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5. Description of the brand (summary of specifications according to article 4 (2)).

a) Name:
Schwarzwälder Schinken

b) Description:
Schwarzwälder Schinken is a cut up, raw and smoked boneless ham with or without rind. The ham is dry cured according to specified recipes and cold smoked with wood from the Black Forest and seasonings. [Note: Here it says that it is smoked with seasoning, the spices are not only in the cure. \My comment] Hereby it acquires its dark outer colour. When cut, it has an intense red meat colour and a distinct scent of smoke. The leaner parts have a specific ham taste and the enjoyment is enhanced by the fat content. The fat must have a nutty and spicy aroma.

c) Geographical area:
The Black Forest

d) Proof of origin:
Schwarzwälder Schinken has been manufactured for centuries from traditional recipes, handed over through generations.

e) Production process:
The pigs used for Schwarzwälder Schinken are selected with respect to keeping and feeding conditions and their type so that it guarantees a top quality end product. The hams are hand salted, heavily seasoned and laid in throughs to mature. After a few weeks they are removed from the brine that has formed and the salt is removed. The following two-week storage on grates is important for the typical cured flavour. The fully cured hams are smoked in brick fireplaces at 20-25 C over spruce wood smoke for two to three weeks. The ham is noticeable for its complete curing, balanced meat/fat ratio and corresponding weight loss (20-25%). The water-protein ratio is 2.2:1.

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[wheels]

Thanks for doing that Grisell. I was hoping that it would say more.

[grisell]

Further in the document, apart from lots of complacency, it also says that the hams are matured for three weeks after the smoking.

Here is a website in English that says roughly the same things: http://www.schwarzwaelder-schinken-verb ... erstellung

[saucisson]

Easy mistake for an internet searcher who just looks for pine:)

It's great that we here have picked up fir/spuce rather than pine.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=black+ ... c606b883df

[grisell]

André speaks not only his native Swedish, but also English, German, Italian, Russian and Polish. Some Czech, Hungarian, Finnish, French, Spanish and Greek.
[---]

Correct, but where the heck did you get that info?