Basterma - is this right?

[wheels]

So you don't think that the Health authorities in Canada who examine his products and manufacturing processes, and who say that his processes and food are safe, base their opinions on science? (My major point that you have ignored)

Your own science bods say:

"--- It follows that it there is not established any specific temperature requirements that must be observed in air drying of salami.

That seems pretty clear to me.

You highlight this part in particular:

From a microbiological perspective, it is usually better if salami stored at room temperature than refrigerated.

But storage (presumably of the finished shelf stable product) is very different from maturing the unfinished product.

[grisell]

I don't agree with that interpretation.

I don't know how scrutionous the health authorities in any country are when they control products. My impression is that they take food safety for granted as long as the facilities fulfill the requirements. This is until something bad happens. They have no resouces to control every single piece of food produced in a country.

The next sentences read "This is because EHEC and other harmful bacteria die faster the hotter salami is stored.". I don't think that this is an insignificant or irrelevant observation. Further: "However, it is your responsibility as a food business to ensure that the relevant requirements of food law are met." My interpretation of this is that the authorities imply a thorough knowledge of the microbiological processes such as the one mentioned in the former sentence. It also indicates that no analyses of individual specimens will be made.

Storage and maturing are the same thing in my opinion. They take place after the product has lost most of its water.

As I said, I'm not questioning BriCan's experience or integrity, I want a debate on a scientific level. This is way over my knowledge in microbiology. I will try to contact those Swedish experts again and see if they can explain more precisely the consequences of different temperatures during curing/drying.

[wheels]

I too can be tenacious. So what do they mean by:

It follows that it there is not established any specific temperature requirements that must be observed in air drying of salami.

[grisell]

I'm not intimating that BriCan's products are unsafe to eat. The fundamental question I'm asking is if air-dried products are safer microbiologically when dried at 12 C than 3 C. I also said that I don't know the answer but that my theories suggest that it should be safer to dry at a higher temperature.

[grisell]

I too can be tenacious. So what do they mean by:

It follows that it there is not established any specific temperature requirements that must be observed in air drying of salami.

I don't know. The quoted text is both ambiguous and scanty. I will try to find out.

[wheels]

I'm not intimating that BriCan's products are unsafe to eat. The fundamental question I'm asking is if air-dried products are safer microbiologically when dried at 12 C than 3 C. I also said that I don't know the answer but that my theories suggest that it should be safer to dry at a higher temperature.

It'll be interesting to see. Logically, once cured to take care of botulism and fermented so that the PH has dropped to the required level, the only other hurdle to overcome is AW. As this is more of a physical process you wouldn't think that the lower temperature would be detrimental.

Well, they're the thoughts off the top of my head.

[BriCan]

I'm still a little dubious though.

Can I try an experiment of sought??
Take a look at the following and give me your thoughts.

Cervelet Salami
Made by: ________________________ Size: -- 29kg
Date: __________________________ Batch # ________________
Meat Block:
10 kg Sow meat Supplier: _______________ Date: ______________
9 kg Lean Beef Supplier: _______________ Date: ______________
9 kg Back Fat Supplier: _______________ Date: ______________
_________ - All equipment to be used is clean – sanitised - and hands washed
_________ - Meat temperature, degrees C.
_________ - All meat cut up and checked for bone – foreign objects – glands etc. @ 4 dg
_________ - Back fat never use sow fat as it is too oily. Cut into strips bacon thickness – not too thin. Chill in freezer and cut on slicer.
_________ - Freeze - then place in cutter and cut to a ¾ dice. Put back into freezer until ready to make.
_________ - Dice meat into two (2) inch cubes trimming off all silverskin and fat – place in 5kg tubs – keep in freezer on a angle to let moisture run out – freeze for 3 ¼ - 4 hours
Spice Block:
__________- 25gm curing salt
__________- 6gm corn syrup solids
__________- 7gm white pepper
__________- 1gm mustard seed
__________- ½ gm cardamom
__________- 2 handful of juniper berries soaked in a small orange juice bottle with rum fill to the top and sealed for two (2) to three (3) weeks
Mixing Procedures: Start time-______________
_________- Place pork in cutter along with beef
_________- Add spices
_________- Turn cutter on at low speed too cut the meat to the right texture like rice
_________ - Stop cutter and clean lid
_________ - Add fat and turn on cutter at slow speed and add salt
End time-______________
Stuffing Procedures: Start time-______________
_________- Remove from cutter and place into small tubs to thaw down to the right pliability so that it will pack into the stuffer without air
_________- Warm up the smoke room until it feels good
_________ - Pack meat into stuffer excluding as much (if not all) air as possible
_________ - Stuff into pre-soaked 80mm x 65cm white fibrous casings Supplier: ____________
_________ - Tie the ends with string on a long string line attached to the table
_________ - Hang in the small cooler for twenty four (24) hours
End time-______________

Curing and Drying Procedures: Start time-______________
_________ - Place in cooker with one (1) inch of water in the bottom
_________ - Hang from sticks so that they do not touch the water
_________ - Put temperature/humidity gauge on a plastic pail in cooker
_________ - Keep temperature at 20 degrees C for curing and 90 – 95% humidity
_________ - Cover with cardboard on top of the sticks
_________ - Leave in cooker for two (2) days minimum – better in seven (7) days
_________ - Give the salamis hanging in the cooker a warm shower at the end of each day as this will keep the outside from drying out (case hardening) and washes off white mould (mould is normal)
_________ - Wash off by hand scrubbing well to take off white mould in cool warm water before hanging in closet
_________ - Store salami between 12 – 15 degree C.
_________ - When firm to the touch/feel, transfer to the reefer to finish drying and maturing 8 degree C.

[BriCan]

Grisell

Given that BriCan is a commercial supplier in Canada and presumably (therefore) his meat is subject to scrutiny/testing by the Canadian Public Health authorities, I think that we can be fairly certain that his process is safe.

More than you think with people within CFIA who know me personally as well as my background I maybe a lot closer watched than most. Be that good or bad I leave that to others.

(No doubt his xx years experience is also of help - actual years omitted to spare the innocent - but I have it on good authority that he knew Moses! )

You can now add another x to the years after last weekend. It is true that I do know Moses, he and I are very close. It was the hanging and drying of meat for long journeys that brought us together many, many, many years ago

[grisell]

I'm not intimating that BriCan's products are unsafe to eat. The fundamental question I'm asking is if air-dried products are safer microbiologically when dried at 12 C than 3 C. [---]

BriCan, please get this right, I'm not picking on you or your processes in any way. I'm interested in if it's microbiologically advantageous to dry at a higher temperature. Since I don't have the required knowledge to assess that, I will have to consult experts.

[grisell]

[---]
Can I try an experiment of sought??
Take a look at the following and give me your thoughts.
[---]

Looks just like the way I as an amateur make them, except for the handling of the mould.

[---]
- Store salami between 12 – 15 degree C.
_________ - When firm to the touch/feel, transfer to the reefer to finish drying and maturing 8 degree C.

That's what I do too. I thought you wrote that you dried and stored them at 3 C?

[big_onion]

So a quick update on the basterma, and some questions.

Things were going wonderfully -- I had two cuts in the mini fridge: one large one, and one that was a "scrap" from the meat I had bought. The small cut dried quick and tasted amazing. My parents were in town and my dad and I polished it off with a few glasses of homemade limoncello.

I'm using a mini fridge for the drying. I have it kept at around 60 degrees, and have a bowl of salt water in there to keep the humidity up. Everything was going fine and then I noticed that the "freezer" in the mini fridge, which is also the source of the cooling, was condensing and leaking water onto the meat!

I patted it dry and moved it off to the side so it wasn't under the freezer. It started to grow some hard white mold and some fuzzy white mold -- nothing that looks dangerous as far as I can compare to the pictures I've seen on here. It got sticky after a bit and is now seeming to harden up.

My concern is that I used the Morton TenderQuick. The original recipe had it drying for just a few days, and now I've had it in there ... oh boy, about two weeks. Does TenderQuick cure enough to have it drying for that long?

I'm tempted to just toss it (and this stupid mini fridge), but if it still might be safe and I can recover it then I want to let it continue to dry out.

Any thoughts?

[big_onion]

Tossing it when I get home from class tonight. It stinks like nobody's business and doesn't look that great (at least it's not sticky), although it's hardened up pretty nice.

Lesson learned: cheap mini-fridge is not an ideal vessel for drying meat.

[wheels]

Sorry to hear that.

[NCPaul]

So your answer is - no. Don't worry, you'll get there and you did get a small taste of it.

[grisell]

Sorry to bring this up again. I'm just a little paranoid when it comes to food poisonings, since I've been there and done that... IMO, you should be careful with this recipe since it deviates somewhat from what is considered safe curing today. More so, since your climatic conditions seem to be doubtful.