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White Hots (Rochester white hot dogs)

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:07 pm
by vagreys
I have friends from Buffalo, NY, who miss the taste of White Hots, and would like to make some for them. 'Hots' is short for 'hot dogs', and has nothing to do with being spicy. These white hot dogs are also sometimes called 'porkers'. They originated in Rochester, NY. Natural casing, made of uncured, unsmoked pork, pork/veal, or pork/beef/veal, and usually include non-fat dry milk. People from there say that weisswurst and white bratwurst are not substitutes. It is sort of like the technique for a weisswurst combined with the seasoning of a hot dog without the paprika.

If anyone has an authentic recipe for white hots, I'd appreciate it. Meanwhile, I am formulating my own attempt.

I HAVE found a good recipe for the "hot sauce" - a meat sauce for hot dogs - that is customarily served on white hots, and will post that after I've had a chance to play with it, a little.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:56 pm
by Iamarealbigdog
We make our version of weisswurst and it is one of our best sausage. I would be very interested in following this up with you...

sounds really cool...

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:10 pm
by Iamarealbigdog
Some have this is a hog case and others no casing

From Zweigle's

A. Product Description: Nitrite Free


a little more research shows dry mustard powder, I think a little white pepper, I'll see if I can dig up some more of the spice additions.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:22 am
by vagreys
Iamarealbigdog wrote:...From Zweigle's...B. Ingredient Statement: PORK, WATER, BEEF, VEAL, NONFAT DRY MILK, SALT, contains 2% or less of: SODIUM LACTATE, CORN SYRUP, DEXTROSE,FLAVORINGS, SODIUM PHOSPHATES.

a little more research shows dry mustard powder, I think a little white pepper, I'll see if I can dig up some more of the spice additions.

It's kind of fun researching recipes and how the same sausages vary from region to region.

Yes, I've gotten as far as Zweigle's and a couple of other commercial producers making them...and that pesky catch-all term "flavorings". At this point, I'm researching individuals' descriptions of ones they have had for clues to the seasoning, and how it would be different from weisswurst. It appears to be described as a "hot dog", and by some, as milder than Zweigle's red hot dog, which is described as a regular hog dog. The fact that the white dog is made with uncured, unsmoked pork, or pork and veal, and milk, would make it milder tasting, even with the same seasoning. It is plumper that a regular hot dog, like a weisswurst. One person says they tried weisswurst, and it isn't a substitute for white hots, that the white hots are spicier than the weisswurst.

So, now I'm researching traditional seasoning blends for hot dogs from Rochester and Buffalo, NY. Looking for homemade recipes for both red and white, in hopes of determining what it is the commercial producers are duplicating and offering. As a food historian, I find this kind of quest very interesting. I expect some of you go digging for regional variations/origins, too.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:26 am
by sausagemaker
Hi Vagreys

I hope this is what you are looking for

White Hot Franks

25lb Pork Trim
12.5lb Lean veal
12.5 Lean Beef
30lb Iced Water
6lb Cracker Meal
2lb Salt
1lb Corn Syrup
3oz White Pepper

Grind beef & Veal through 1/8 plate
Grind Pork through ¼ plate
Place ingredients in chopper & chop until fine texture
Stuff & link at 4inch intervals
Steam 165 f 15 minutes or until internal 155f
Cold shower

Recipe from “The complete sausage book” by Jack Sleight


PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:57 am
by vagreys
I think it is getting me closer, Richard. This is the first recipe I've seen that actually identifies itself as White Hots. Everything I've read, so far, suggests that non-fat dry milk is an integral part of the mix, but this is exactly why I need to see recipes like the one you provided. Sleight's book is one of the only prominent books I don't have. If nothing else, this suggests proportions for the pork, veal and beef. Thanks for the recipe. I'll glean what I can from this one, and keep looking.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:58 pm
by spatzle
Len Poli has a recipe for "Swiss hot dogs" (white hot dogs) that sounds like just what you are looking for. Or very close to it. The texture should be right; just the question of whether the spice mix is similar to the Buffalo hot dogs or not.

63.00% veal
32.00% pork jowl
1.50% salt
1.25% milk, dry skim
0.85% sugar
0.42% mustard seed, ground
0.42% lemon zest
0.35% pepper, white, ground
0.10% ginger, powdered
0.06% mace, ground

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:36 pm
by Iamarealbigdog
I think a combination of the two... Corn syrup is needed along with dry skim milk.

Spices look interesting, I give it a go but will not be able to compare as I have never had them before...

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:23 pm
by vinner
Integral to this is to know that this is an emulsified sausage. After mincing , you must make a paste, or batter, using the food processor, in batches if necessary. It is important to keep the minced meats very cold so the emulsion does not break. ... -Swiss.pdf

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:06 am
by DanMcG
Years ago I tried to reproduce the flavor of a locally made white hot, or "coney" as we call them in Syracuse NY with good results, but never could get it right.
You might want to try Ryteck Kutas's bockwurst recipe as it is very close to what you might be looking for and modify it from there.
The local one that I tried to reproduce has the ingredients listed as;
Veal, water, pork, nonfat dry milk, salt, flavorings, onions, eggs, milk.
I hope this is some help, Dan

PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:13 am
by fatnhappy
take a look at my address. We love our zweigles. I had to laugh, at our manager's cookout this year we had a new manager from Iowa that volunteered to do the shopping. We usually do cornell chicken, burgers and dogs. She came back with oscar meyer hot dogs instead of zweigles and it damn near started a revolt!
Anyone that would like to try zweigles can order them from Calabbresella's deli.

Vagreys, Rochester is also justly famous for our hot meat sauce. Nick Tahoes created it before WWI and has served it on garbage plates for over 90 years. I have a good recipe too. Just a tip, when you make your meat sauce ladle some into ice cube trays and freeze it. Then break them out of the tray and put them in the freezer in ziploc bags. Then you can nuke a couple as needed for burgers or dogs.

My meat sauce

2 Tbsp Lard (or butter)
2 onions
1 lb hamburger
4C water
1 clove garlic
3 Tbsp Chili powder
½ tsp cayenne pepper
½ tsp paprika
1 Tbsp Salt
½ tsp black pepper
1 tsp cinnamon
1 tsp Nutmeg

Fry onions until lightly browned then add the other ingredients. Simmer uncovered 1 ½ hours.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:12 am
by vagreys
Sorry, folks. I had to leave for awhile for work, but after 5 months between contracts, it was welcome. Thanks for your replies. I had the good fortune to meet and talk with a man who's been a butcher for 30 years for Wegman's, in Rochester, and he described in detail what I'm looking for. From what I can tell, the white hot is descended from the Frankfurter and Weisswurst, rather than the Weiner. If he remembers, this man has a collection of local homemade sausage recipes from the Rochester area, that he says he will send me (if he even remembers). It was kind of him to take the time to talk with me, regardless. It was originally an all pork sausage, but became a pork/veal, pork/beef/veal, or pork/chicken/veal blend. It has mustard. It has milk. Some have onion and garlic. Some forego the allium. All include mace. No paprika. Some Rochester white hots include lemon, some don't. Syracuse white hots generally include lemon. Some include herbs like oregano or marjoram. About 25-30% fat. About 10% liquid. A total of about 40% fat and liquid together. Haven't had a chance to start playing, yet, but I certainly intend to.

Thanks for the meat sauce recipe, fatnhappy. I've always been intrigued by the Rochester garbage plate.

So, research is done. Now it is time to experiment!!!

PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:42 pm
by DanMcG
It' been a while Tom, I was wonder how your quest is going to find that perfect white hot.
I finally had a chance to try a Zweigle's Premium Whites. I must say they were very tasty and not overloaded with flavors. Our local whites are a very complex mix of spices so this was a welcome change for me.
They come 6 to a pound in a very short fat sheep casing about 28-30mm and swell up another 6 or 7 when cooked.
I would mind trying to duplicate this one myself.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:28 pm
by Iamarealbigdog
Yep I am very eager to try these out; one of the house hold favourites is weisswurst made with all pork loin and the current recipe is very close. So this would be a great adaptation for the kids.

Unfortunately I have never had a white hot, so comparisons are tough here...

still very interested...!!!! :D

PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:18 am
by vagreys
DanMcG wrote:It' been a while Tom, I was wonder how your quest is going to find that perfect white hot.
I finally had a chance to try a Zweigle's Premium Whites...

Sorry it's been so long. I do intend to do this one, but I had to put aside the actual sausage making for a bit. The day after my last post on this thread, I had a heart attack due to one of my kidney transplant medications. While in the emergency room, I apparently caught the swine flu; so, about the time they released me following the heart attack, I actually came down with the swine flu and ended up spending several more days in the hospital. Unfortunately, anything they give me to fight an infection runs the risk of causing my body to reject my kidney, so it's a balancing act, and it takes longer for me to recover from even a head cold.

Anyway, I'm hoping to get back to actually developing a recipe for this after i finish paying off the leeches. In the meantime, I've had to confine myself to research. I have three sausages in development: a low-sodium chicken and vegetable sausage that is almost done; the White Hots; a 14th-century Catalan butifarra that is stuffed in chicken neck skins (we have an index entry in a cookery manuscript, but the recipe is lost). I'm also working on the Embutido Project I mentioned last month, and am in the process of writing my first installment for you all on a whole class of sausages common to Galicia, Asturias, Leon, Extremadura, and northern Portugal, but almost nothing written in English on these sausages.

Bottom line - I expect to get back to actual sausagemaking, instead of just book work, very soon.