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(Well, the heading speaks for itself...)

As stated by the USDA, HTH's

Note: As stated in the regulations, phosphates are limited to "5% in a pickle at a 10% pump
level", "0.5% in the finished product", "0.5% in the product", and "0.5% of the total product".
As illustrated in Table I, pages 7 through 10, these limits are equivalent to 5000 ppm.

I can copy and paste the pages mentioned if you'd like.

DanMcG wrote:As stated by the USDA, HTH's

Note: As stated in the regulations, phosphates are limited to "5% in a pickle at a 10% pump
level", "0.5% in the finished product", "0.5% in the product", and "0.5% of the total product".
As illustrated in Table I, pages 7 through 10, these limits are equivalent to 5000 ppm.

I can copy and paste the pages mentioned if you'd like.

Thank you. That was the information I needed. That amounts to five grams per kilo, then. Yes, I'd like a link to source please, if you have it. Do you know if it gives any funny taste to the finished product?

Once again, thanks.

Sorry I can't break out the page but what you're inquiring about is at the bottom of page 9.
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSI ... 7620-3.pdf
Glad I was able to help.

that's ok, thank you.

grisell wrote:...That was the information I needed. That amounts to five grams per kilo, then. Yes, I'd like a link to source please, if you have it. Do you know if it gives any funny taste to the finished product?

Once again, thanks.

According to Marianski, the typical dose is about 0.3% phosphate.

Marianski wrote:...In other words, the combined action of salt and phosphates is greater than the combined efforts of salt and phosphates if used individually. Around 0.3% phosphate is a typical dose. The maximum allowed is 0.5% but note that they are quite bitter and adding more than 0.3% may affect the product's flavor...Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausage, p. 13.

Len Poli suggested 0.3% to 0.5%. Keep in mind that meat contains about 0.1% phosphate to start with.

Oh, thanks again! 0.3% it is then.

grisell wrote:Oh, thanks again! 0.3% it is then.

I am still at a loss

Another question: Will phosphate be of any beneficial use in coarser fresh sausages that don't depend so much on a perfect emulsion (chorizo for instance)?

grisell wrote:Another question: Will phosphate be of any beneficial use in coarser fresh sausages that don't depend so much on a perfect emulsion (chorizo for instance)?

When a question is asked as this I would in all honesty say no.

One has to wonder about the use [of phosphate] in sausage and I do know there will be a lot of people defending the use of it. I do know the reason why 'some' people use it, but just because the big [commercial] guys do it it does not mean it is right.

My 2p worth.

grisell wrote:Another question: Will phosphate be of any beneficial use in coarser fresh sausages that don't depend so much on a perfect emulsion (chorizo for instance)?

In general, I agree with BriCan. Phosphates are added to sausage to accomplish two things, basically:

1) Retaining moisture. Phosphates mimic the effects in muscle meat that ATP has in live muscle. The meat remains supple, tender and retains moisture. For this purpose, it could be considered beneficial for fresh sausages, enhancing their moisture content and retention, so the sausage doesn't become as dry as it might, otherwise.

2) Protein extraction. Phosphates in combination with salt, greatly enhance protein extraction, critical for stable higher-fat meat emulsion/batters.

I can see why commercial manufacturers would want their fresh sausages to remain plump and moist during extended shelf life in supermarkets. I have a harder time understanding why added phosphates would be necessary for fresh sausage, at home, which is either going to be eaten very fresh, or frozen for later use. I get all the moisture I need in the sausage from water, wine, broth, etc. I've never used phosphates for fresh sausage. My personal goal isn't achieving the texture of a commercial sausage, but to create the best, fresh, homemade sausage that I can. I guess, if my goal were to reproduce a commercial sausage, that I might add phosphates to help achieve the same texture as the original (but then, my sausage would only be an imitation of somone else's).

I have to admit that I'm the same way as a brewer. I don't want to reproduce a Newcastle Brown or Samuel Smith Nut Brown Ale. I want to make brown ales according to style, but with my choice and balance of grains, and my preferences in hops and hopping. So, I may not be a good example.

As for protein extraction, I can see why commercial manufacturers want to obtain as homogenous and consistent a emulsion product across batches, as possible. Customers in the market place want their frankfurters, hotdogs, bologna, etc., to be consistent from package to package. I am only getting into emulsion sausages, now, and really don't have a feel for whether I need phosphates to improve the quality and texture of my emulsions. It isn't like I have a bowl chopper that is going to get down to the molecular level and give me maximum extraction, anyway. It might be that on my small scale, with a cuisinart food processor, adding phosphates would be pointless, since my protein extraction is only going to be so good, regardless. Getting the last bit of protein extraction may not be realistic for my limited kitchen.

I wouldn't bother with phosphates, except maybe to satisfy my curiousity in a batch or two. By the same token, I don't think there is anything horrible about adding phosphates, if you want to. Phosphates occur naturally in meat, dairy and whole grain cereals, in significant amounts. Phosphates are added to many processed fruits, vegetables, nuts, and shelf foods.

From my perspective, as a food historian studying cuisines from a time before commercial additives, my personal philosophy is why add unnecessary chemicals to foods that shine best when they are treated simply and not masked? Curing salts I embrace as a matter of common sense food safety. Other additives leave me less convinced. Just my 2 cents.

Thank you for your comprehensive reply! I made a Swedish falukorv ( http://forum.sausagemaking.org/viewtopi ... 0820#70820 ) yesterday with the addition of .3% phosphate. I will try it today and report back.

vagreys wrote:my personal philosophy is why add unnecessary chemicals to foods that shine best when they are treated simply and not masked? Curing salts I embrace as a matter of common sense food safety. Other additives leave me less convinced. Just my 2 cents.

I am 1000% behind you on this. I will never make a lot of money in my business but I will and have made lifelong friends.

http://www.phosadd.com/feedback/waterhouse.htm

First, there is evidence that phosphate in the diet is above the optimal level and has been increasing in the last 20-30 years, as it has become more widely used in many types of processed foods.
This agrees with the findings of FDA researchers Calvo and Park ("Changing phosphorus content of the U.S. Diet: Potential for adverse effects on bone." Journal of Nutrition 126:1168S-1180S, 1996).
The latter published a study that revealed that dietary phosphorus levels have increased enough to potentially contribute to osteoporosis.
In particular, the ratio of calcium to phosphorus in the diet has declined. Phosphate additives are used in buffer solutions, emulsifiers, stabilizers, thickeners, and antioxidants.
They are also used in the meat industry, cheese spreads, soups, sauces, creams and chocolates. Phosphate as an additive can be found as a flour improver, a flow conditioner in bulk goods, an aerator and as a component of modified starch.
Hafer reports that Feldheim calculated an intake of 1570 mg per day as contrasted with a recommended level of 750 mg.

Hafer describes a number of experiments with a low phosphate diet.
For instance, a psychiatrist - Dr. Roy-Feiler - found a low phosphate diet to be helpful in treating ADD in the clinical setting.
Fifteen children with ADD, whose symptoms had been under control for several months with the low phosphate diet, were tested in a double blind manner.
Capsules containing a 6.9 pH buffer solution of 75 mg PO4 (a very physiological form of phosphate) were used in the test and the children reacted quite violently to the phosphate, with reoccurrences of their previous symptoms that lasted for days.

I wouldn't use it after reading this

I get your point, guys!

Well, opinions are different. Personally, I will use any additives that improve my result as long as they are not unhealthy. Additives are not all bad. My falukorv turned out very good. A little too firm; next time I will use half the amount of phosphate.