Pauline's Christmas Ham

[Oddley]

wheels, what I was trying to do was compliment captain wassname, I might have done it badly, as I am celebrating at this particular time, but that was my intention. Sorry if it didn't come over that way.

[captain wassname]

Oddley;
It never struck me any other way thank you

Jim

[NCPaul]

There seems to be a small handful of people interested in the this topic (and one, quietwatersfarm, in a commercial sense) and others will eventually come across this thread. I propose that we collectively, approach this as a problem to be solved and not as points to be made. As Wheels has shown, testing is not inexpensive; I can get it done for free (AS WORK PERMITS). We must collectively row together. I have contacted the FDA-FSIS and hope to have a reply from them shortly. I have read this forum for over a year before I joined and I have seen the same arguments go round in circles before; this is the best forum in many ways and particularily in terms of food saftey that I know of. I wouldn't have joined otherwise. I have the utmost respect for all of you for working on a problem that we all want to solve.

[NCPaul]

'the riddle of the methods of calculation used by the FDA'

To make this more clear, consider this; in my experiment, at day four, the meat (1200g) had gained 52g (4.33 %) weight. The brine was at that point composed of water 83.9 %, salt 10.6 % sugar 5.3 % and sodium nitrite 0.18 %. I calculated the weight gain to be water 22.6 %, salt 54.9 %, sugar 21.6 % and sodium nitrite 0.92 %. Both the sugar and sodium nitrite could have been slightly more. These numbers would not have been easy to predict based upon this brine to me. I knew in theory that the salts would move to establish an ionic equilibrium, but I could not have arrived at this result short of testing. Weight gain purely, based of this data, can lead us astray to what's happening, unless we are dealing with a well defined system. I personally struggle with Method 1 for this reason. Hopefully, the FDA (which didn't develop this method for home curing) can help us out.

[quietwatersfarm]

In my view, this is all good work and well worth persuing as an exercise.

For what its worth I am confident we will never get anywhere definitive as such, due to the nature of the task. This is because no two bits of meat are the same and texture, density, fat content, shape and size will all have some effect.

Having said this, finding the best recipes and techniques that can generally give reliable and determinable results is surely in the interests of the users here?

For my part, I am perhaps old fashioned as far as brine curing is concerned, and admiteddly less experienced than many here. We only immerse our hams, usually in fairly large lumps (anywhere between 2.5 and 3 Kg each) and whilst we weigh out the brine recipe ingredients very carefully (and nowadays use the 2:1 ratio) everything else ids 'rule of thumb' stuff. I base the immersion time on about 10 days per kg, which often means they are in for a month, then they come out and have a good week 'resting'in the chiller before they are trimmed up and either used whole 'roast on the bone' or boned out, tied and sliced.

We always get a dark uniform colour and a remarkably well balanced flavour, with the brine seasonings being well absorbed right through the meat. People love these hams and I would have no plans to change anything we do unless I am doing something actually wrong.

For the purposes of this thread (if its helpful) I intend to do the following at the end of the week:

Set up normal brine tub and a 'control' tub that will remain empty of ham.

Post brine recipe.

Weigh hams before immersion.
Measure salinity of brines each week during initial cure. (is this often enough?)
Weigh hams when removed from brine.
Weigh after one week equalisation.
measure salinity of liquid drained from hams in this period.

I know this may not prove or disprove anything, but it may give some useful indicators and hope it helps

[johnfb]

Mod hat on.

This, I think, is a valuable thread, as those like me who don't understand the ins and outs of all this are relying on the rest of the boffins to sort out safe and unsafe practices and then give us the idiots guides.

However, I must point out that posters NEED TO READ their posts before they submit them, as words are not like language and cannot be judged on facial or body expressions ( as we all know).
I am guilty and have been guilty of this in the past.

There have been a number of posts here that have been taken up wrongly, judging by the following posts, where the poster apologises for it.

I am unsure if there is oneupmanship going on in this thread, nor do I care as I am not part of it, but for those who are involved in the thread please remember that the end result is for the betterment of ALL not for one, and not for anyone to feel they have got one up on someone else.

As a non poster in this thread I am reading a lot of posts that seem to be trying to get a rise out of others....just my take on it, and I will be glad to be corrected on that if I am wrong, but if I read it like this then others must do too.

We are a great bunch of guys here, lets try to keep it that way and see what the end result of any tests are. But please (mod hat on) please please, try to remain friendly and civil and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be aware that your post may be read in an opposite way than intended.

If you have to type you are joking or add in smileys then do so.
It would be a shame for the forum to be reduced to a : "Where can I buy casings" or " what kind of stuffer should I buy", and all the invaluable threads, like this one, and all the valuable posters, vanish because of ill feeling or people feeling they are not valued. Everyone is valued, everyone has an opinion, PLEASE add you two pence worth...but bear in mind the feelings of others.
Thanks

John





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[quietwatersfarm]

Hi John,

I hope I havent been guilty of anything, but I can see how things get lost in written translation

Speaking as both an enthusiast and someone involved in the world of charcuterie and sausages for a living, I have to say one of the greatest things about this whole sphere is difference!

I have visited and talked to people throughout Europe and worldwide about many aspects of the art and craft of curing and making and there are as many viewpoints and opinions on the subject as there are people involved and i have never found this to be a problem

There is no wrong, just different ways of doing things and different levels of success

[johnfb]

Hi John,

I hope I havent been guilty of anything, but I can see how things get lost in written translation

Speaking as both an enthusiast and someone involved in the world of charcuterie and sausages for a living, I have to say one of the greatest things about this whole sphere is difference!

I have visited and talked to people throughout Europe and worldwide about many aspects of the art and craft of curing and making and there are as many viewpoints and opinions on the subject as there are people involved and i have never found this to be a problem

There is no wrong, just different ways of doing things and different levels of success

This post sums it all up better than i ever could...and certainly in a lot less words. Well said QWF, well said.

john

[captain wassname]

John
Id be more than happy to put the little fellas on,If only I knew how and if I could find one with a really smug expression.

QWF
will you be curing more than one ham in the brine?
As far as Im concerned the more data the better.
Jim

[quietwatersfarm]

QWF
will you be curing more than one ham in the brine?

Generally do six to a tub, there will be three tubs on the go at any one time with three flavoured cures.

Happy to provide info on each but the cure and salt content is uniform so we would be getting into the realms of 'what impact does cider/moscavado/juniper etc have on uptake?' and thats probably running before we can walk!

[johnfb]

John
Id be more than happy to put the little fellas on,If only I knew how and if I could find one with a really smug expression.

QWF
will you be curing more than one ham in the brine?
As far as Im concerned the more data the better.
Jim

Looking for smug...how about this two gits???

[captain wassname]

QWF.
makes sense to me

John Thats SMUG and condecending

Jim

[wallie]

As John said in a previus post was:
All Pauline wanted was a nice slice of ham.
Then all this high tech stuff followed.

You sure have a lot to answer for Pauline!

I am reading the posts and thinking of my olden days when I was a cook in the merchant navy.
(This is where my family would say 'here he goes again back to the olden days')

Every ship had its pickle barrel in the veg room the brine formula was:

3/4 fill with water then in with the egg next came the salt aprox 28lb or till the egg floated and finally 1.5lb saltpetre.
A good stir then in went the legs of pork and the ox-tounges.
Thinking of that now I'll bet that was too much saltpetre, but I am still alive in good health and 82 year old.
I dont know about the rest of the crew though!

Saying this I must admit I prefer the brine recipes on this site especailly from Odley and Wheels.
Regards and keep pickling
wallie

[quietwatersfarm]

Its so true that some things have changed and its often difficult to know how neccessary some of those changes really were, or whether they are more driven by modern mass production requirements.

I know Maynard Davies states as a matter of fact that brine should be kept going, often for years, as it improves with age, as do the hams flavour as a result.

[johnfb]

It's like San Fransisco Sour Dough Bread, some of the mother dough has been "alive" for decades now and constantly topped up with new dough, but apparently that's how it tastes unique from there, plus there is an air-born bacteria only found in that area that adds to the flavour as well.